Lou L Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 I suggested practicing using mild because, when I started, usable knife steel wasn’t in large supply in my shop. I assumed the same case here. Plus, the mistakes beginners make are usually geometric errors, hammer control errors, and failing to achieve the desired outcome. Using mild steel for the first few tries nets you useless blade shaped steel objects (if you are lucky) but saves your good steel. For sure, working carbon steel is completely different and Thomas is , as usual, right in pointing it out. You have a much narrower range of forging temperature as you can’t get it too hot and can’t forge it too cold. You won’t learn this until you use the real deal. Mild steel is no substitute for this lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 22 hours ago, Steve Sells said: I have no clue where you found those numbers, but those temps are too cold for any steel. I already told you how to do it in the HT sticky that you said you read. Since you choose again to ignore it, your on your own now Those temps are from a bladesmith I was able to talk with in my state as he was running a event on bladesmithing and are specific to bladesmithing at the sizes I am working at according to him. He is a registered ABS bladesmith. and runs Fisks knives. However if this is wrong what is a approx temp you would suggest for normalizing cycles? I also could have misheard him and it is 1300°C and not 1300°F 21 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: As for practicing on mild---WHY? It doesn't work at the same temperatures or react under the hammer the same way; so you are really "practicing baking pies using mud". hammer control. nothing else. @ $0.20USD lbs and it is more for the other person at my forge and for me to get my rhythm back as I didn't swing a hammer in a very long time. Plus idk if the steel is actualy mild. I will probably find out by the end of the week after I quench it. all I know is it was bulk steel so is PROBABLY mild steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Either you didnt remember correctly or he is wrong, and I already told you the correct temps in the post you said you have read. I see no reason to write it again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, Steve Sells said: I already told you the correct temps in the post you said you have read. which is this one right? Intro to Heat Treating 16 minutes ago, Steve Sells said: I already told you the correct temps in the post you said you have read. which is this one right? Intro to Heat Treating I do know the it should be 75°F 50°F & 25°F above the curie temp. I just don't know what the curie temp(critical or magnetic limit) is. I know that it can vary batch by batch of even same steel but I havn't found a range to start working off of. I only have my forge atm to heat it but will eventually get a oven for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 850 Celsius = 1562 Fahrenheit 1100 Celsius = 2012 Fahrenheit 1300 Celsius = 2372 Fahrenheit I agree that range just doesn't add up right. and 1300°F is below the curie point of any steel. isn't the steel default curie temp 1414 F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 I explained how to find curie temp for each steel as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 Also I hear about the decalescence point. I know it varies pre steel and starts to happen between orange and yellow. Anyone know the about temperature it would be at the decalescence point for say 1084? 10 minutes ago, Steve Sells said: I explained how to find curie temp for each steel as well Yes you did and thanks for that. but I was wondering the actual temp (within say 1084 as a baseline) just to verify as I am a very detailed person and unless I know actual numbers it doesn't sink in well. Do you have a type of magnet you like over others? I have some cheap ones on a telescopic rod for say automotive and I also have neodymium magnets. not sure it matters or not. As for the decalescence point I have not witnessed this before. I read that it looks like shadows dancing across the steel but again my eyes are not great. So a approximate temp of when it starts and stops would help me know what to look for and at what time with more accuracy. In say 1084 steel. is there a green screen face mask or other eye cover that would help me see it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 1084 hardens in oil nicely from 1475F but I dont see how that will help if you cant tell if a magnet sticks or not High temp thermometers are expensive so very few shops have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Honestly, stressless, it seems to me that you are the type of person who would seriously benefit from getting a programmable oven. It is terribly difficult to achieve the accuracy you are describing in a typical forge. Most of us settle for “close enough”, use a magnet, turn down the lights, and use whatever experience we have. The rest rely on Paragon ovens! Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 I have a 1500°C/2732°F laser for testing temps. so that actually helps a ton. Thanks as for the magnets? neodymium are stronger magnets so can attract a weak force. would you recommend them or just the generic ones like to get for picking up stuff in automotive types. the telescopic once that you see for like $5usd at home depot/harbor freight. is there anything that will help me see the decalescence point when heating steel and correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is when it starts to turn into austinite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Use a cheap magnet. You are going to be touching it to glowing steel after all. Steel is completely non-magnetic once it's hot enough. You'll either feel the pull or you won't. I usually use one of the magnets used to hold steel for welding corners. Just stick it to something magnetic near the forge for easy access. Test how it feels with the steel cold so you know the relative pull of the magnet, then check it as it starts to glow and then go a little hotter and check again until it's not drawn to the magnet. It doesn't get much easier than that. You can typically see decalescence easily in low light on blade blanks. It will look kind of like a shadow in the sense that the steel on either side will be brighter as the transition takes place. Most of the time I've seen it happen in kind of an extended "U" shape since the tip cools off fastest and I usually don't bring the tang up to full temperature before quenching. Regardless, if you get a piece of steel higher than critical temperature and observe it in low or no ambient light you should be able to easily see it for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 I have a ring-shaped magnet hanging off one corner of my forge by a long string, and I test magnetism by moving the workpiece towards it from the side. If the magnet starts to swing towards the workpiece, it's still below curie temp. If it doesn't, I'll tap the magnet with the workpiece to confirm that it's not sticking. Works a treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, Buzzkill said: Most of the time I've seen it happen in kind of an extended "U" shape since the tip cools off fastest thanks now I have a better idea of what to look for and also to turn off the lights. 7 minutes ago, JHCC said: I have a ring-shaped magnet hanging off one corner of my forge by a long string You know that is a wonderful idea and I will have to try this. do you soak it a bit before you quench? what color do you normally see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Stressless: You're making a common mistake in learning any new craft. You're looking too hard at details that don't really make much difference at your present skill levels. That's not a dis, it just is. We see it frequently, heck there are other guys posting the same kind of questions some on different subjects. Relax, this is FUN, we're not practicing hard science here. You do NOT need to worry about precision heat treatment to learn to make blades. If you do get to that level you'll need the right equipment say ramping kilns and proper temp controlled quench tanks. You don't need to learn to build and tune a dragster engine to learn to drive do you? My standard advice to folks wanting to learn blacksmithing by making blades follows. Acquire or build your basic equipment, forge, anvil, hammers, cutting tools. Learn to use them on projects that highlight basic skills. Draw long even tapers, make hooks, nails, steak turners, etc. then another basic skill, bending and twisting have probably been covered making different hooks etc. Yes? Heading the nails covers basic heading which IS upsetting. That's what 3-4 basic skills already? Then do some lateral drawing: (make the stock wider and thinner) Leaves, spoon, chisel, hardy, etc. This is basic and easier to control than a single bevel lateral draw, those want to curl on you like forging a blade. No? How about some joinery? Lap welds are easy and are covered on IFI. Mortise and tenon? Ooh, you need a punch? You have that skill, yes? Just add some hot rasping to smooth it and you're adding another tool to the box. Yes? So a tenon is really basic, just isolate a section and draw to a straight pin the same dia. as the punched hole. Check that the length extends through the hole about 1.5x it's diameter, cut and smooth the end. Yes, a smooth even end on peined rivets and tenons makes for nicer finished products. If you want a tight joint, say structural then you want to hot pein the tenon so it draws the joint tight as it cools. So, a peined mortise and tenon joint means you've developed several skills, yes? Setting rivets uses the same skill sets. Let's see you need tongs to fit some bizarre aardvark sculpture project? Hmmmm, you'll need to: draw the bits down, straight flat longitudinal draw, you know that one. Isolate and do a lateral draw for the bolster. Got that skill too. Draw the reins, just a long straight taper, nothing new there. Punch and rivet the halves? A little different, you'll need to head the rivet as much on the very end as possible. A light hammer tends to mushroom ends so you use a light hammer to pein the pivot rivet and repeatedly open and close the tongs as the rivet cools to keep it free moving. There are a number of excellent tong making videos to choose from in the IFI video recommendation section but you need a few basic skills to make them. The trick to being a successful blacksmith is learning a step at a time and putting the skills together into more complicated projects. Where does all this puts you towards making blades? You need to know how to do almost all these things to make blades successfully. Not only know how but have enough practice at them to be proficient. That's where all the coat hooks, steak flippers, garden tools, etc. you've been giving to friends and selling at craft shows, etc. comes in. You've learned how to do a single bevel lateral draw without letting it turn into a curliecue like it wants. Those chisels, punches and such have given you a good handle on eyeball heat treating. You KNOW what it feels like to hold a magnet against steel that's transitioning to nonmagnetic. Do NOT use those plastic magnets they don't last and stink. This isn't a must do it Frosty's way thing, It's your shop, your way. I'd just really rather see you making nice blades come next fall and posting pics here so I can drool over the art. And no I didn't cover dressing blades, blade furniture is a few different skills sets even if similar. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: Draw long even tapers, make hooks, nails, steak turners done On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: basic equipment, forge, anvil, hammers, cutting tools have but now I am working on vertical quench tank and the hardening procedure. On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: Heading the nails covers basic heading which IS upsetting I started all my latest projects with upsetting the metal first as I am working towards damascus (prob in a year from now) On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: lateral drawing: (make the stock wider and thinner) Leaves, spoon, chisel, hardy did leaves but not others I will have to try them to see how I do. in hardy to you mean making a hardy tool? i.e. cutoff tool? done this already with W1 On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: tenon not sure what it is. On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: peined mortise and tenon joint example so I can research this? On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: Let's see you need tongs to fit some bizarre aardvark sculpture project? I am actually in the process of making a full set of new tongs instead of buying them out of 836 blanks. your right on it loves to twist and also bend up on the reins. My issue I have been having it is so cold so having to preheat the anvil takes quite some time so my work doesn't lose it's heat so fast. (big chunk of mild steel 6"x4"x2"thick) On 2/12/2019 at 3:16 PM, Frosty said: Do NOT use those plastic magnets they don't last and stink. metal rod with a spear cap on it formed over a smallish square magnet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, stressless said: have but now I am working on vertical quench tank and the hardening procedure. Later, your skills sets need more development. 3 minutes ago, stressless said: I started all my latest projects with upsetting the metal first as I am working towards damascus (prob in a year from now) Don't waste your time trying to add procedures you don't know to things that don't need them. If you really REALLY want to learn to upset then just upset, forget incorporating it into something until you can do it. What's a tenon? Did you even bother to search forged tenon? You want ME to provide an example of a mortise and tenon joint so you can "research it? Don't waste my time doing YOUR homework. If you want my help, help yourself at least a LITTLE BIT! It's cold here too so I spend time reading and helping folk when I can here. Time to maybe look things up for yourself? Hmmmm? Almost anything you can do at the anvil you can model with modeling clay, plasticine for out Brit Bretheren. 12 minutes ago, stressless said: metal rod with a spear cap on it formed over a smallish square magnet. ? WhatEVER. I have a bunch of magnets in the shop, welding, old computer drive magnets, small horse shoe, bar, etc. and a couple mechanic's fishing magnets. Any will work, even the plastic/rubber ones IF you're fast enough. Questions like this last one are why folks get agravated answering your questions. You have to do SOME thinking for yourself, experiment even. It doesn't make you a bad guy, stupid or anything like that. It's just annoying. That's okay though, I'll whip you into shape, it's the curmudgeonly thing to do. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 last wasn't a question it's what I did for the magnet. as for the tenon I am having trouble as there is so many pics not sure what i am looking for. If i'm not mistaken it's basically a integrated rivet for 90° joint? as for the upsetting I am doing it not to integrate it but for practice. (waste not want not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, stressless said: basically a integrated rivet for 90° joint Close enough. Did you watch ANY of the how to videos? I did a fast search and several came up on page 1. Now go do some reading I'll get back later, maybe tomorrow. See if you picked something up I can help with. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 14, 2019 Author Share Posted February 14, 2019 tendon swag tool for my hardy hole. Blue signifies blank space pink alignment square rods was also thinking to remove a bit of stock between top and bottom and put smallish springs over the square rods. will probably make it longer than the picture shows to compensate for lack of hammer control so the alignment squares don't do damage and the squares would be flush when done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 I think you need more experience in how hot steel moves before you start designing tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Just learn to forge a tenon, it' a basic skill for a blacksmith. Were I mean I'd encourage you to make that tool but I'm not. As drawn it WILL jam with the first hammer blow, maybe,probably hopelessly. You don't need to dress a tenon in a swage unless it's a hinge pintle. If you can't find out what tool to use you aren't doing much if ay research. Don't stop thinking about making tools though, you never know when you'll come up with something useful. You might want to spend more time learning to blacksmith if you want to be one. I haven't lit a fire in a while, it's too cold here but I've done quite a bit of reading and picked up a few things to try. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 20 hours ago you posted Peined mortise and tenon joint Example so I can research this? What size tenon are you making? Is it the size needed for the project that requires a tenon? Go to the forge and actually make several tenons of different sizes by forging. This will show you what is needed when you make the tool you are considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Have you thought of using a deep wall socket for a monkey tool and how to avoid cold shuts or stress concentrators at the transition point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 that tool is for last phase forming mostly to fix mistakes AFTER I do the work by hand. just to true up the shape. I will be also using it to clean up the reins on my new tongs that I forged out. atm I don't have a project requiring a tenon but I will make a few as blanks I guess just for future use and practice. should mention that the swage tool above will be rounded on the connecting surfaces fore and rear as it is probably going to be made out of 2.5" round stock. and the squares probably will end up rounds but for the pic I didn't want it to be confused. 20 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Have you thought of using a deep wall socket for a monkey tool and how to avoid cold shuts or stress concentrators at the transition point? I have a swage block with several holes just for this reason that I will start the tenons on. I will also preheat the tools to hopefully help prevent cold shuts. as for stress concentrators that is why the swage tool will have rounded fore and aft entrances. but windows paint doesn't have a good way to show this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stressless Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 and when I say rounded I don't mean a 45° I mean more on just a few degree rounding so that after I use it it still has shoulders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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