Another FrankenBurner

3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

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Just now, pnut said:

My name is also Mike, hence the confusion.

Pnut

But of COURSE! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:!

Frosty The Lucky.

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11 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Of course if a person who passes hovers around in the afterlife keeping an eye on their survivors I want to watch folk at the estate sale trying to figure things out.

Ron Reil gets a kick out of this thought too.  He is into the history of things and has lots of treasures.  He regularly presents me some tool/treasure with "What's this?"  He told me his mentor Grandpa (Nahum Hersom) also enjoyed that game.  

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1 minute ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

Ron Reil gets a kick out of this thought too.  He is into the history of things and has lots of treasures.  He regularly presents me some tool/treasure with "What's this?"  He told me his mentor Grandpa (Nahum Hersom) also enjoyed that game.  

I can imagine! Roger Degner is famous for telling folk to look under such and such pile at the estate sale. I only met him the one time and the person he said that to asked which place. Not pile, place. Roger chuckled and said he thought it was the. . . and named a couple towns, place. 

 Frosty The Lucky.

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My father and I made a 3/8" burner mini forge for the brother for Christmas.  An introduction to blacksmithing to start his addiction.  A man can't have too many vices.  We are now both jealous and making a couple more.  

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The 3D printer was responsible for a lot here.  The burner head pattern, the mold for the refractory nozzle and the inner forge forms were all printed.  

The forge interior is an oval created by splitting a 2 inch circle by 2 inches.  It is 6 inches front to back. (~43 in³)  It gives good floor space for how small the forge is.  It is a very capable forge.

The burner ended up outputting much more than expected and could supply more forge than this.  This little dragon is hot at lower pressures and is happy with less fuel.  Here it is sans baffle walls and at the low end of the regulator:

IMG-1358.jpg.ea3fe63b28777d55089f051e995a0666.jpg

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You probably have no interest in doing so, but that is a marketable product if ever I've seen one. 

Pnut

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AFB that is a cracking little Forge!!  and the efficiency ticks all my boxes as a hobbyist Smith.

Pnut is totally right. If you could simplify the construction to save yourself assembly time it would be a very sellable product.

If not, your proven efficient burner design has customers waiting already (me for one!)

Keep up the good work and have a cracking New Year matey!

Tink!

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SWEET! That's a heck of a nice little forge, a little construction refinement and it should be pretty darned marketable. It sure beats heck out of most recent examples of store bought forges.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thank you all.  It is encouraging.  The forge turned out very nice.  We have some changes in mind for the next ones.

As to marketing them, I certainly won't rule it out.  I would like to be a source for a high quality forge.  A lot would have to go into that.  I worry about liability(as much as I hate that word).  I am not sure about shipping fired refractory.  Also a lot goes into these between all the printing, the cast curing times, the kiln firing the refractory, investment casting the burner head, making the orifice assemblies, cutting out and welding the shell and the material costs. At the end of it, it's a mini forge.  I don't know that I could provide them at a decent price and for similar labor/material costs, a larger forge could be had.   

As a hobbyist forge, this forge is great.  I worked out of a Freon tank mini forge for a couple of years after building one based on Ron Reil's website.  It has about a 4 inch cylinder interior at 12 inches long.  This gives about 1.5 inches width of actual flat floor in a forge which is too long and has a hot spot right in the middle.  Typically I was heating 5 extra inches of bar closer to where I want to hold it, just so I could get into this hot spot.  This new mini forge has 3.5 inches of flat floor and it is hot front to back.  It uses a smaller burner and it is hotter.  Less fuel and more capable.  I can't say enough good things about it.  I am a fan of the smallest forge to get the job done though.

The burner was scaled down for this forge.  It ended up taking a 0.8mm printer nozzle drilled out to 0.035 inches for the orifice which means this little burner can really put out heat.  I was quite surprised it was happy with an orifice this large.  I think it has to do with the short length of the mix tube and the shape of the retention nozzle which is cast directly in the forge lining.  I'm not sure but we were all smiles once we realized it was a mighty mouse.

I am still tinkering with burners though.  Playing with nozzle shape, I now have a 3/8" burner which likes the 1.2mm(0.047") printer nozzle.  I am still tinkering with it but it is a tiny burner putting out major BTU's.  I am now thinking about burners in terms of their output instead of their nominal throat size.  My half inch burner has a 1mm(0.039") printer nozzle orifice and I think that it is a contender with some of the 3/4" burners.  This new 3/8" burner is running bigger than that.  It makes me wonder if I scale it down to a point where it is happy with the 1mm orifice, could I have a baby burner that outputs similar BTU's as a 3/4" burner?  

This is getting ahead of myself as I have not fully tested this new burner through all of the pressure ranges up against a forge.  It is still plastic and plaster.  I am just excited at the idea of a smaller burner.  Tinkering is fun.

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2 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

It makes me wonder if I scale it down to a point where it is happy with the 1mm orifice, could I have a baby burner that outputs similar BTU's as a 3/4" burner?

You WANT to make a LPG injector burner?! :o 

In short sure, look at BTUs content of liquid propane and run the #s. The BIG boys run the lpg through a super heated injector for max mixing with air. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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2 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

As to marketing them, I certainly won't rule it out.  I would like to be a source for a high quality forge.  A lot would have to go into that.  I worry about liability(as much as I hate that word).  I am not sure about shipping fired refractory.  Also a lot goes into these between all the printing, the cast curing times, the kiln firing the refractory, investment casting the burner head, making the orifice assemblies, cutting out and welding the shell and the material costs. At the end of it, it's a mini forge.  I don't know that I could provide them at a decent price and for similar labor/material costs, a larger forge could be had.   

Marketing a kit would greatly lower liability and costs.

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16 hours ago, Frosty said:

The BIG boys run the lpg through a super heated injector for max mixing with air. 

It sounds like fun but then the flame propagation velocity increases.  This leads to pumping up the output velocity which leads to a powered air supply which leads to a redesigned mixing chamber which leads to... I can see the headlines now, "A man was killed in his garage early Sunday morning when his experimental turbine forge exploded."  ^_^

16 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Marketing a kit would greatly lower liability and costs.

I will put some thought into pulling this off.

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15 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

It sounds like fun but then the flame propagation velocity increases.  This leads to pumping up the output velocity which leads to a powered air supply which leads to a redesigned mixing chamber which leads to... I can see the headlines now, "A man was killed in his garage early Sunday morning when his experimental turbine forge exploded."  ^_^

HUH?:huh: The propane leaves the jet as a super heated liquid and shifts phase almost instantly dropping the surrounding pressure significantly and being hot mixes with air easily and quickly.

The velocity of the flame is controllable by introducing the propane into a mixing tube or in small enough quantity to make the velocity you want.

The biggest benefit of super heating the propane is making it mix with air without special mixing tricks. Liquids are much better inducing secondaries (combustion air in this case.) than gasses. 

I gave a lot of thought to recouping some of the combustion heat for preheating the jet but didn't like anything I came up with so I stopped playing with the idea. Maybe if I were making 2"+ burners LPG would be the cat's PJs.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I was mainly joking around, not my strong suit but I keep trying.

What you said makes sense though.  I have played with heating the mix(not liquid fuel) but always fought the flame propagation velocity being so fast that it flashed back.  In the case of liquid with a phase change, I bet there is enough refrigeration of the mix to prevent this problem.  It's pretty clever.

I can think of a few ways to pull that off but I would think controlling the amount of preheating would be important and that seems like a balancing act.  Fun thoughts.

I probably won't dabble in that.  Seems like a complication not worth the effort on low output burners.

As to running the numbers on the BTU content of the fuel, I don't try to be that specific.  A rough idea, sure, but there are too many variables for me to accurately calculate anything like that for real.  What I was meaning was that any two burners comparably burning the same quantity of fuel are outputting similar BTU's regardless of orifice size, fuel pressure, mix tube size, etc.

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Hi Frosty. My question is off this topic . I'm relatively new to this forum . How does a person contact another person in private from this forum ?  Regards Retired Farmer. If you can't be good be careful ! 

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If you hover your mouse over the name of the person on the left side of their post, it will open a small pop up menu showing profile stats.  In that menu, at the bottom left is an envelope icon and the word message.  Click that and it will open the private message screen.

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Alternatively, you can click on their name to view their profile which also has a Message button.

Another way, at the top right of any page here, you will have an envelope icon.  Click that and a menu opens.  In that menu is a Compose New button.  You will have to type the name of the person you want to message, if you go this route.

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Here was one of my nozzle experiments a while back.  We call it the flame blade.  The intent was to stretch the heat source along a large length of the wall and have a short length flame.  The geometry is critical on these guys and must be balanced with the burner.  As I am still tinkering with burners, I had set this one on the back burner until I eventually maybe finalize my burner design so that I can then produce one of these which matches that burner.

Here is the complete 1/2 inch burner still in plastic and plaster:

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Here is a shot of the narrow channel of the retention nozzle:

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Here is the flame it produces:

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This was after several failure experiments to get the geometry all balanced:

IMG-0907.JPG.5559164a48af8f095ad24ea59ad3d61c.JPG

 

 

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Fresh kast o lite burn off gives the greatest contrast for fun fire pictures.  Another mini forge startup:

IMG-1445.jpg.e0ea1f682fac5a3482f84103d834c67b.jpg

Here is another experimental burner:

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Here is an inner with nozzle for the next mini forge experiment:

IMG-1435.jpg.6319713981a3938a39b7675b01923a52.jpg

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AFB I really like where you are going with these mini-Forge designs.

Elegent and functions design. Keep up the good work.

Tink!

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