Another FrankenBurner

3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

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16 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

We are using these nozzles with a printed/cast inlet chamber.  In the image of the forge, you can see it.  Unless I am misunderstanding what you mean.

again im sorry i misunderstood and thought you were testing on a linear burner. 

i do however wonder if the injector tube couldn't also be cast along with the inlet chamber? would just need drilling out and tapping for the nozzle to fit directly. of course the perfect nozzle position would need to be ascertained but it might be an idea worth considering?

just imagining a single piece cast inlet chamber with a removable nozzle for maintenance/upgrading, all you would need is to add a mixing tube and it would be ready to run.

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Reinventing the wheel springs to mind.

That sounds a lot like an Amal injector, but without the facility to vary the mixture at will.

33 minutes ago, bertie_bassett said:

just imagining a single piece cast inlet chamber with a removable nozzle for maintenance/upgrading, all you would need is to add a mixing tube and it would be ready to run.

 

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I am not quite following what you mean.  Could you describe/define what you are meaning when you say injector tube and also nozzle.

I think by nozzle, you are meaning the fuel orifice/jet?  By injecting tube, are you meaning a divergent outlet from the throat?

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sorry words are not my strong point.

by nozzle i mean the orifice/jet. the injector tube is simply the brass tube with the jet on the end.

perhaps this sketch will explain better? basically just cast the below in one piece (with air slots), the back end gets drilled through and then just tap M6 for a 3d printer nozzle ( orifice) 

image.thumb.png.95e908fbd0e23204a89b24145f2b6323.png

 

 

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No need to apologise.  Since there are no set terms, it is hard to talk about.

I understand now.  One concern with doing that is that it would take away the ability for the orifice position to be adjusted.  I like adjustability so that the burner can be tuned when it in it's final position.  I suspect the best jet position may be different depending on the intended use (small forge, big forge, ribbon burner, hand torch).

Not that I don't think it wouldn't work.  I think it would work just fine with the best average orifice position. 

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Most of this design is already available with a Hybrid burner; they are hot, but not hot enough; we are already well past them.

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23 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

When you say 0.036-0.040 jet, are you meaning actual diameter?

Yes, the actual diameter of the holes.  But the Reil is a hole in the side of a tube, while my cast burner is a mig tip, and the tips are drilled out.  Actually I think it's a .042 now that I think about it.

Dan

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BTW, congratulations to Another FrankenBurner for starting this thread, which has already grown to 23 pages of unique and thought provoking information on a very promising method of burner construction.

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I have been following along since the beginning of the thread and am impressed by the progress that's been made. I'm not planning on building a burner/gas forge any time too soon I have started collecting materials for when I do decide to go ahead and take the plunge. It's been fascinating watching the evolution from the beginning and all who have contributed my hat's off to you. Good work and I can't wait to see where it goes from here. 

Pnut

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Thank you.  I originally started this thread to list my feats and failures in the hopes that some could learn from it and others could educate me.  I have been educated, inspired, encouraged, and motivated here.  

I am still tinkering.  It has slowed as I am studying for an exam for work.  After reading code for several hours a day, my mind is too melted to think burners.  Hopefully I will be done with that soon. 

With the straight burners, I have not improved beyond v46.  Lots of experiments(up to v80) but not a lot of change.  I am playing with inlet shape in the hopes of reducing the size of the inspirator.  I have also been playing with straight ribs to eliminate the helix vanes.  They reduce air induction some and they require investment casting, at least so far.  They are doing something special though, I can't seem to get away from them.  

I am also playing with 3/4" burners.  I don't see myself using them for forges.  These things put out way too much heat.  We are using one in the foundry furnace.  I like smaller forges though.  We have a 450 in3 forge running two 1/2" burners and it seems like a cavern.  The 185 in3 forge demands much less fuel and accommodates most of the things we are doing over here.

On 10/11/2019 at 6:40 AM, pnut said:

take the plunge

I interpreted this as meaning that building a forge is a monumental task.  If it is correct and it is causing hesitation, I did the same on my first one.  Once I got started, it finished quickly, I wondered what all the fuss was about and moved on to thinking about the next forge.  I hesitated longer than it took to build the forge.  Plot what you want and get started.  Building a forge the easy part.

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No I think I have a pretty good grasp on lining the shell and a T burner seems straight forward enough. I may be in for a surprise though. When I said plunge I really meant time and $$$ for materials. I have a solid fuel forge that's done everything I've needed so far. I started out with the intention of going with a gas forge until I figured out how simple a solid fuel forge really is to build. So it's more a matter of justifying the expense and finding time. It's been hard enough finding time to use the forge I have and whether I want to use that time to actually forge something or building a forge. I'll get around to it eventually but until then I will keep following along here and there's a ribbon burner thread I've been keeping an eye on.  Keep it up and best of luck to all.

Pnut

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Latest cast burner.  Works great. Played with a few tips and ended up with a 3D printer tip drilled to .046.  Don't need to show the forge running....it's hot. 2380F at 5 lbs.

DanR

IMG_7612.jpg.69fc4a8694244b64127f8da5e96f36de.jpg

IMG_7613.jpg.69083dbee2ae523fff9642d4e0ffd266.jpg  

IMG_7621.jpg.eef9e9a93c53a9b12d6db9251662a2c8.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said:

2380F at 5 lbs

Uh HUH. Your pyro says 2479! This kind of exaggeration is going to impact your credibility you know!

That is such a pro looking burner I have to rib you some. Have you come up with a logo yet?

Frosty The Lucky.

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1 hour ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

Unless I've gone cross eyed the pyro I see is at 2379...close enough.:D

If we're not looking at your AVATAR your eyes haven't crossed. His pyro does say 2379, I was joshing him about 1 degree so of COURSE I strike the wrong key and  end up the butt of my own joke. . . AGAIN. :wacko:

Break out the rubber cyber chickens and whack away boys, I deserve it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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LOL. Rubber cyber chicken party???? Sounds fun, I’ll bring the virtual beer!  Thanks for the compliment, that’s the wonder of 3D printing, 30 minutes extra playing around and it looks professional!  I did put ‘Old Canyon Forge’ on it. 

Oddly it burns 100F hotter pulled back in the 1” tube a bit. Like having a nozzle helps pull more air or mix it better even though the nozzle is welded to the plenum. I need to play around with that, but something significant is going on there. 
 

DanR

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Well, maybe. But you are reading forge temperatures, which is not as straight forward to deal with as burner flame temperatures.

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3 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Well, maybe. But you are reading forge temperatures, which is not as straight forward to deal with as burner flame temperatures.

You're right of course, we don't know what's going on.  I'm just making an observation. It was adjusted for maximum forge temperature with the burner pushed in all the way (which is just about the full length of the 1" sleeve), so it was at the hottest flame mixture I could get.  Then I pulled it back 1.5" or so and the temp skyrocketed up 50F in just a minute or so and stabilized after several minutes at around 100F over the original temp...no adjustment of pressure or mix, just moved the burner out.  Haven't played with it, so don't know what is going on, but it's getting the gears moving.

Also quick question...How would I measure the burner flame temps without burning up my pyrometer?  Have to do it inside the forge or the environment adds another variable.  Basically, what method would you suggest to best measure the burner flame temps?

DanR

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5 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said:

Oddly it burns 100F hotter pulled back in the 1” tube a bit. Like having a nozzle helps pull more air or mix it better even though the nozzle is welded to the plenum. I need to play around with that, but something significant is going on there. 

Not so odd really, sliding the nozzle in or out is how Mike fine tunes his burners. Even slight changes in induction change the fuel air ratio. You get it pretty close with the regulator and air valve but it takes finer control to get the FAM just right Hmmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

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10 hours ago, Frosty said:

Not so odd really,

Not odd that something happened, odd that it was so extreme and curious as to what is happening. It was a +100F temp change from forging heat to welding heat which is equivalent to cranking the gas up several pounds (at least 50% more) on my other burners. Why? Longer mixing tube = better mixing? Increase in size at nozzle = slowing of gas which does...what? Imitates a wasp waist? Allows it‘s right angle entry in the plenum to be easier?  The end of the nozzle is welded to the plenum, so it’s not about FAM at the nozzle, it just changes the speed the gas entering the plenum. 
 

On the plus side, it’s a new variable in the NARB we’ll be able to control that could give better results!

EAD427D6-5BC8-4F6F-9C0A-09DAD599D6D5.jpeg.bcc003a1fd0cd85e944ee001daaff084.jpeg
 

28620AB2-353C-4B2B-B4F0-7C0CEC1CED17.jpeg.6e3bff478823b629c40ccae5d566578a.jpeg

note: the black pipe extends into the bronze burner head about 3/4”  

DanR

 

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There you go, it's a step nozzle/flare(?) I don't recall the name Mike. It acts in the same manner as a flare by increasing the area of the cross section in the mixing tube. Lengthening it increases the length of the flare and lowers pressure in the tube. This increases how much combustion air is drawn leaning the flame down.

Nothing odd about it, this is how Mike fine tunes his burners. It also allows you to vary the forge atmosphere in real time.

The T burner isn't designed to be tuned in real time, it's a variable I deleted from the basic design to keep it as simple as possible. Once a T is tuned that's it across it's psi range. It's been KISSed.

Frosty The Lucky.

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22 hours ago, D.Rotblatt said:

Also quick question...How would I measure the burner flame temps without burning up my pyrometer?  Have to do it inside the forge or the environment adds another variable.  Basically, what method would you suggest to best measure the burner flame temps?

You are quite right about reading flame temperature being a hard task; actually, it is a  very expensive nut to crack; not one I was willing to pay for, either :D

My point is that we don't want to forget that they aren't the same nut. Is this just nit picking?

Nearly twenty years back a student sent a model showing his idea of one of my early burner designs, for evaluation; it was hilarious, being about 23" long. I cut it down to a reasonable length without changing its flame, and sent it back to him...BUT he had taught me a valuable lesson as too; namely that all of us were tuning our burners to neutral flames and ignoring hotter possible flames--just because!!! They are called Hybrid burners now.

So, I'm not saying anything about your method, just reminding us all--including me--not to overlook the obvious again :P

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