Edgewise Hold Fast

[dickb]

I use two types of holdfast to secure work to the anvil, a Chain holdfast and a gooseneck holdfast. Both work good holding most work solidly on the anvil.  Neither of these holdfasts work well holding a piece of flat stock edgewise on the anvil. For example a 1/4 by 1 1/4 with the 1/4 inch edge on the anvil.  I am trying to set the shoulders on a hidden tang knife blade tang. 

The best I can come up with (untested) is An inverted U shaped piece of iron. The gap between the two arms of the U would be just large enough to allow the work piece to be inserted. 

The inverted U would be a close fit to the Hardy hole and possibly slightly tapered. 

To use it you would place the U shaped piece over the edge of the work piece and tap it into the hardy. 

More or less a third hand. 

Hopefully this will keep the work piece steady and you can hammer a piece of round stock into it to set the shoulders.

Can anyone suggest an alternate way. 

I know a guillotine would do the job but I don't have one.  

[ThomasPowers]

I am a bit confused as this seems to say: I need to build a fixture because I don't have a different fixture.  Why not build the one you need?

Drilling and bolting you can build a swing arm fuller with an adjustable gap without needing to weld it. 

You can mount a piece of sq stock in the hardy hole and then clamp the strap to it with vise grips or a C clamp, (or a DeStaCo, or a bolt with a large washer to trap the piece and a wingnut for fast tightening, or use a slotted hardy tool with a low angle wedge, or ...)

[Latticino]

As you already know a guillotine will do a great job at this.  If not a spring fuller that has a couple of almost butcher sharp (forging tool butcher, not butcher knife), or whatever round stock size you want for your transition radius, ends can work as well.

If not that, careful use of the anvil edge and correct hammer position is also effective.

However you have come up with an interesting idea for a modified hold down.  I think the geometry of the "u-bend" will have to be pretty carefully executed to work as you have described, and will not be easy to setup and use as you want, but why not go for it.  Personally I would just build a guillotine (fantastically useful tool) or spring fuller.

 

[Frosty]

I can imagine a couple ways to hold a piece of stock edge on the anvil but if you're setting matched shoulders and drawing out a tang I don't understand why you need one. 

Were I needing to do what I think you're describing I might: clamp the stock as Thomas describes with it over a piece of stock the thickness of desired the depth of the shoulder and use a flatter to set the shoulders and forge the tang.

Rather than go to all that trouble and hassle while the stock is losing heat, I'd use stock long enough to hold between my legs (WITHOUT cooking the boys!) and set the shoulders with a flatter or a set. 

This is a basic blacksmith's skill and a good example of why I recommend new folk learn basic blacksmithing to a level of proficiency before tackling advanced projects like blades.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

In the past i have used 2 different methods..  Method 1:  a long unit forge welded (or riveted together) on the bottom edge  after the sides have been forged in a longish taper.. Since they are easy to make and use you can make several.. 

The way it works is you simply let it sit  in the hardie hole and when ready slide the bar you want to hold into it and give it a light whack on top and it will close up both sides pinching it dead perfect and tight to the anvil face.. If the tool is made well it will offer a 90 degree to the anvil face each and ever time..  to loosen it you just hit it back up from the bottom..  The bottom shank can be made long enough to make it easier to loosen... 

The other simpler method and not as accurate Method 2)  is to forge a longish U with the desired size on the inside of the U just a tad over size.   

This gets dropped over the bar you want to hold into the hardie hole with open legs down and a wedge of sorts is driven into the hardie hole against the Downward facing U to pinch it up.. 

I made a cam operated device years ago which you would step on and it too used the hardie hole.. I was to young to get it to work properly but had/has potential especially if you work by yourself..    I can draw it too, but it's more of a machine than simple like these 2 examples.. 

These 2 methods mentioned work very well and are easy to use once you figure out the little nuances.. 

Few drawings to clarify.. 

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

I can imagine a couple ways to hold a piece of stock edge on the anvil but if you're setting matched shoulders and drawing out a tang I don't understand why you need one. 

Were I needing to do what I think you're describing I might: clamp the stock as Thomas describes with it over a piece of stock the thickness of desired the depth of the shoulder and use a flatter to set the shoulders and forge the tang.

Rather than go to all that trouble and hassle while the stock is losing heat, I'd use stock long enough to hold between my legs (WITHOUT cooking the boys!) and set the shoulders with a flatter or a set. 

This is a basic blacksmith's skill and a good example of why I recommend new folk learn basic blacksmithing to a level of proficiency before tackling advanced projects like blades.

Frosty The Lucky.

If you really need to form an accurate shoulder  just use the leg vise to pinch/forge the shoulders in with..  

The best way is to forge a taper starting at where you want the shoulder to be and ending at the desired thickness or width of the tang.. 

The taper is best made fairly short..    Then at an orange heat drive with the vise jaws back in this taper using it as a forging press..  This will give very accurate results in just a few heats will be completed.. 

[jlpservicesinc]

[ThomasPowers]

One thing to remember is that you Don't want a sharp cornered transition at that point acting as a stress concentrator.  When I clean up that transition with a file I tend to use a chainsaw file to make sure there isn't a sharp corner.

[SLAG]

In a pinch,  I have used precisely positioned drill holes to make the dimensioned transition between the tang and the blade.

Such drilling must be very accurate to avoid leaving a divot at the transition point.

A drill press helps for such drilling.

SLAG.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thomas, thanks for adding that indo. I figured it was a common sense thing..   So adding here: depending on how sharp the tips of the vise jaws depends on whether a radius jaw piece need be used or not..   

since i do all the work by hand with files I never think about this transition point as not having a fillet or gullet or radius in the transition.. 

Funny how working with Japanese blades the point where the Habaki goes is square with no radius.. I've never broken a sword there though it is sharp cornered and the hamon goes back past this point.. 

[ThomasPowers]

And the traditional Japanese sword is not hardened in the tang section only the edge.  Having unhardened steel makes for a big help in avoiding failure from stress concentrators. 

We get a lot of people through here who are trying to leapfrog into bladesmithing without learning all of the basics; so it's good to go our of our way to "remind such folks for the first time".

[jlpservicesinc]

TP as usual the area below the habaki  (mounting surface or stop (hamaki) is hardened and it isn't till the juction at the handle proper that is not hardened. this area under the Habaki is still considered part of the blade and is sharpened when the blade is polished. The habaki holding the tsuba etc, etc..  

Here you can clearly see the hardened area extending right past a sharp notch on both sides of the blade..    I'd take a photo of my Ninja-to but I haven't polished it in years probably be hard to see as it's a user blade.. 

Anyhow it's rare to find swords broken here in the Japanese style  vs  what people experience else where.. 

I made one of the vertical hold fasts..  I filmed it and will make a " How to" video on the subject..    
 

The hold fast works very well..  Much easier and smaller on a London pattern or an anvil with a thinner heel section..  This one had to be made longer to loosen it which needs to be smacked up from the bottom.. 

 

as tightened but not straightened.. You can adjust it some but this was as forged no modifications. 

[anvil]

How about hand holding your parent stock, then forge your shoulder and tang on the near side edge of the anvil using edge to edge blows. Then make a suitable monkey type tool and set your shoulder between tang and parent stock.

Simple basic smithing.

[dickb]

I use an inverted U shaped piece of flat stock similar to what you describe, but with a slight addition. I drop the U shaped piece over the stock I'm working on . 

Then I put the U shaped piece into the hardy hole and drive a long thin wedge along side the U piece. Be sure to flare out the end of the U piece so the wedge pushes against it and forces it to close the U and clamp onto the work piece.  Be sure to make the wedge long enough so you can loosen it up by hammering from below. It's helpful to thin out the closed end of the U so it flexes easily.