Anvil stand question?

[BLDSMTH]

Does welding your anvil to a steel stand increase the efficiency of it? Kinda like adding more mass under it and making it heavier.

[ThomasPowers]

Full penetration weld? Tack weld?  If it is one piece is acts as one piece. if there is a discontinuity then there is less "coupling".

 

[BLDSMTH]

Full penetration weld. The reason I bring up the subject is the anvils with the welded base (electric weld) has me wondering if the base actually becomes part of the anvil or just serves as a means of stability. Also what anvil makers actually welded anvils up using modern methods?

[Stash]

I bought an anvil once that was welded to a steel milk can. Didn't seem to do either one any good.

Steve

[Steve Sells]

Just bolt it down, its very hard on the anvil to UNweld

[BLDSMTH]

What kind of amperage would it take to full penetrate weld 4 inches?

[ThomasPowers]

Not as much as you might think;  as you offset the plate on a rod usually along the middle and weld up the gap. once you have a good start on one side you can grind out the rod and start welding the gap from that side as well.  Basic welding process; if you have never heard of it; it might perhaps best be done by someone with more welding experience.

[anvil]

21 hours ago, BLDSMTH said:

What kind of amperage would it take to full penetrate weld 4 inches?

I'd suggest forge welding it. Then amperage becomes the least of your problems.  

[ThomasPowers]

Unless they are using an induction forge for heating it to forge welding temps.

[BLDSMTH]

Forge weld the anvil to the stand?

I  am asking if welding the anvil to the stand would make add to the mass of the anvil.

[ThomasPowers]

Which we answered and then proceeded to wander off the path and discuss methods of welding it---we haven't covered explosive welding or vacuum welding yet; but both of those processes don't use many amps...

[Buzzkill]

26 minutes ago, BLDSMTH said:

I  am asking if welding the anvil to the stand would make add to the mass of the anvil. 

With respect to how much the anvil resists moving around in use the answer is "yes".   In terms of rebound or efficiency of the anvil itself, a full penetration weld could potentially add a little bit, but probably not worth the trouble.  Anything less than a full penetration (or successful full length forge weld) will not have any appreciable impact on the rebound properties of the anvil.

I use a steel tripod anvil stand with the anvil bolted to it.  This is mainly to reduce the ring of the anvil when struck and to decrease the amount the anvil moves when struck.  Personally I do not consider whatever small gains could be attained by welding the anvil to the stand to be worth the effort.  Fastening an anvil securely to the stand using easily reversible means is well worth it though IMHO.

[BLDSMTH]

Sorry I didn't mean to offend you I thought it was a serious suggestion. Lol the reason this comes up to me is because I have a 66 lb Ebay anvil and I am going to make a stand and I was thinking about welding it to the stand. I figured I'm not doing any damage to an antique or even a nice new anvil.

[ThomasPowers]

You didn't offend me.  Are you sure your anvil is steel?  Though if you have 4" plate to hand a striking anvil for heavy use/abuse might be a better job for it than the base to a small anvil. (The problem with a small anvil is that even with a massive base strongly coupled to it, heavy work is still dangerous to the anvil!)

[BLDSMTH]

I'm just concerned about welding through the thickness of the feet of the anvil which is about 4 inches at its thickest point across. I'm pretty sure its steel...it says accicao or something on the side but it translates to steel in English. 

 

[Steve Sells]

what is wrong with bolting it down, its much easier and less damaging to the anvil

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

From the picture, it looks like two mounting holes in the feet. Very simple to bolt it to the stand and welding it to the stand will not add mass to the anvil.

[Glenn]

3 hours ago, BLDSMTH said:

I  am asking if welding the anvil to the stand would make add to the mass of the anvil.

If you welded the anvil to the deck of an aircraft carrier, would it add 90,000 tons to the mass of the anvil?

 

[Marc1]

5 hours ago, BLDSMTH said:

I  am asking if welding the anvil to the stand would make add to the mass of the anvil.

BLD ... we had some lively discussion on this subject and it proved to be a sensitive issue, don't ask me why, I don't know.

The problem with your question is ... that it is the wrong question. 

Consider the definition of mass from Wiki

Mass is both a property of a physical body and a measure of its resistance to acceleration when a net force is applied. The object's mass also determines the strength of its gravitational attraction to other bodies. 

With only that in mind, if you weld the anvil to the steel stand or if you bolt it or even if you glue it with caulking compound, yes, the anvil+stand mass is one unit and will have more inertia if you try to push it to set it in motion, then if each object is separate.

The problem is that the anvil is there to make your forging process possible using a hammer and placing your work between them and making your hammer collide with work and anvil.

In the case of collisions, objects behave different according to the material they are made of, their density, the speed and mass of the objects colliding and a few more things to consider. The stand in this case is a secondary object that participates in the collision but not as if it was one unit. To determine by how much is not a simple task and the illustration by Glenn with the anvil welded to a ship, gives you the idea that when the stand may contribute in a minor way, using an infinitely large stand does not make much of a difference.

It would be much cheaper to make a 100Kg anvil welded to a 200Kg stand and sell it as a 300Kg anvil. Does not work that way. Any seam, crack separation,division, change of density or material will make the unit not a unit when it comes to behaviour in a collision. An example would be to strike a piece of cast iron and another that has a crack. 

Yes, a properly bolted or welded stand would add stability to your anvil. No one likes to weld to an anvil because they are usually 100 years old or more and we tend to treat them better than we would a tool that is still in production. New anvils are expensive and for the same reason no one would think of welding anything to it. 

[BLDSMTH]

Ok I will bolt it to the stand. 

Another question...how many makers actually welded anvils up using modern methods?

[ThomasPowers]

That would be a good question to ask Richard Postman.  I assume you are thinking only of the weld at the waist?

[JHCC]

Very generally (as I understand it), anvils fall into four categories:

1. Steel face plate forge-welded to a wrought iron body, as made by Peter Wright, Mousehole Forge (aka The Undisputed King of Anvils), etc.
2. Steel face and body arc-welded to a wrought iron base, as made by Hay Budden (I assume this is what you mean by "modern methods"?)
3. Steel face with a cast-in-place iron body, such as Fisher and Vulcan
4. Cast steel throughout, such as Soderfors and Holland.

As far as I know, welding up all-steel anvils has never been a thing (at least not on a commercial scale), other than people doing one-of anvils for their own use.

But yes, Postman would know this much better than I would.

[BLDSMTH]

I have see 2 double horns that appear to be completely welded up (arc welding). I will look around and see if I can find the pictures.

Note: these are not going to be my pictures. 

 

What's the chances my anvil is steel?

[ThomasPowers]

One (or more---can't check AinA while working) of the anvil manufacturers in Columbus Ohio arc welded the top body section to a cast steel base.

[Glenn]

34 minutes ago, BLDSMTH said:

What's the chances my anvil is steel?

Which anvil? What brand? Photos would help. Not enough information to answer your question.