Storing an anvil so it does not rust

[JHCC]

Paul did not disappoint. Here is his reply:

Quote

Excellent silliness. For comparison purposes, the skin of the space station is aluminum, passivated to prevent it boiling off in space, and then painted white with titanium dioxide as the pigment, which has a favorable reflectivity in the near IR and visible, and higher emissivity in the far IR, so it can re-emit some heat. That's why all space stuff is white if it isn't shiny.

The thickness of the space station walls is about the same thickness of the walls of a soda can/ beer can. Not proportionally, scaled up, but actual. Very, very thin. The space station is essentially a thin wall aluminum balloon.

They do get hit by micrometorites, which sometimes puncture the wall. The smallest ones leave small enough holes that the dust and dead skin cells from the astronauts plug them. MIR was like that at the end, a sieve, plugged by skin cells.

The larger micrometeorites they try to predict and avoid.

I suggest storing your anvils in pure argon. You've already got it if you have a supply of welding gasses on hand.

And the argon is a bit heavier than air, so it will stay in the tub where you are keeping your anvil, provided you cover it to keep the breeze from stirring the argon out of the tub. Helium is much too expensive, and nitrogen mixes more easily with water vapor than either argon or helium.

Enameled cast iron tub would be best. Temperature controlled with heaters on the tub wall, to keep it from condensing.

Vastly cheaper than storing your anvils in space, and much more readily accessible.

 

[HojPoj]

His gas solution has a few flaws, diffusion over the longer storage timelines is still going to allow the constituents of air to work their way in. 

And inert though it may be,  Helium is one of the hardest elemental gases to contain... it readily migrates through a lot materials.  Back when I was a co-op at a nuclear power plant we used it to check the seals of a few bits of piping that penetrated into the containment silos.  Had to use a giant roll of refrigerant tubing as a supply line since the unavoidable leakage from the tank and regulator fittings was enough to trip the mass spectrometer we used to detect leaks in the equipment.   Anything other than metal lines had too much through wall leakage to be usable.  

From my time learning about the operation of lighter than air vehicles (a different weird work experience) they have the same problem with helium migration through the envelope (which for the zeppelin we got hands-on with,  used mylar as the material if I recall correctly).

[Marc1]

That is easily solved. Find a large PVC drain pipe that can fit the anvil complete with two caps.

Glue one cap, place the anvil inside, fill with argon and close the other end. Your time capsule is complete. Write on it ... to be opened in 100 years. 

As a secondary consideration. If you hammer on the pipe containing the anvil, will the mass of the pipe be added to the mass of the anvil and allow to work on it ... mm ... don't answer that

[ThomasPowers]

Ohh can't resist; as they Say in "Coupling" Perhaps, Perhaps' Perhaps!

[Frosty]

Argon is lighter than air so you have to subtract the difference. 

We could s tore it under a particularly leaky conifer and store it in amber, given time.

Tie a rope to it and store it in The La Brea Tar Pits. That transliterates as "The The Tar Tar pits." if anybody's interested in frivolous asides during this serious discussion.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shabumi]

Why not just throw the anvil in a chest freezer? Wouldn't the cold freeze out any moisture?

A bit off topic, but this talk of lighter than air vehicles has me thinking of a LTA anvil stand. Need the anvil at a different height? Just add or remove your LTA gas of choice. Heck, the extra lift provided might make it more efficient at moving metal. 

[JHCC]

5 hours ago, Frosty said:

Argon is lighter than air so you have to subtract the difference

Argon is heavier. At standard temperature and pressure, argon is 1.784 g/L, while dry air is 1.29 g/L.

11 hours ago, HojPoj said:

His gas solution has a few flaws, diffusion over the longer storage timelines is still going to allow the constituents of air to work their way in. 

And inert though it may be,  Helium is one of the hardest elemental gases to contain

Not sure how much of an issue the diffusion rate would be, although that would presumably be taken care of by Marc1's PVC solution (although PVC can degrade at temperatures that are too low to affect the temper of the anvil), but the discussion of helium is tangential. Does argon suffer from the same containment issues?

[HojPoj]

Argon doesn't have the leakage/migration issues of helium.  Only brought up helium because it was part of Paul's response.

[JHCC]

Gotcha.

[Frosty]

11 hours ago, JHCC said:

Argon is heavier. At standard temperature and pressure, argon is 1.784 g/L, while dry air is 1.29 g/L.

Wrong AGAIN, DRATS! So I guess that means you add the difference. Now we're talking performance! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Gazz]

I put an anvil into storage in my barn about 20 years ago.  As I accumulated more really important stuff over the years, it became  a bit buried or at least out of sight when just walking through.  This past summer, I started cleaning stuff out and dug deep enough to find the anvil, securely fastened to its lamp post base.  The rust on the face is serious and I'm sure it is pitted some.  These things are like cold drinks on a hot summer day and will drip water after a cold night and a warmer and humid day.  If I were ever to put something like an anvil into unheated storage again, I would coat it with tar.  I is impervious to water, will not peel and is readily removable.

[tanglediver]

Well, that's a bust. My argon tank is empty, and have you seen the price of refills these days? 

We sell nitrogen for tires at work, and I get all I want for free, cause I am an employee, so, nitrogen it is, just as soon as I grease it up, wrap it in cellophane, pack it in pvc end caps, and load it into the next passing satellite launch vehicle. 

I could have Steve McQueen's Blob eat it though, that thing was nothing but zombified axle grease anyways.

[Steamboat]

On 12/6/2018 at 8:28 PM, JHCC said:

Paul did not disappoint.

Regarding space station construction, you might want to have a look at this:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120002584.pdf

Al (Steamboat)

[BartW]

I found my anvil coated in tar. Took some cleanup, but was well kept for years.

Having no tar; should I be in the position to need to store a lot of metal outside; I would sandblast everything; then paint it with industrial paint; then store it in a wooden box (or build a box around it) to shelter it from the direct sunlight and direct rain. As for industrial paint; I'd use the two-part epoxy paints used on diving bottles. This stuff is NOT porous; and keeps steel bottles protected from seawater.

As for weird ideas; don't we have the technology to make something like a castable silicone that isn't corrosive ? Put everything in a wooden box; pour it full; leave it outside; the box would rot away, and you'd be left with a block of pudding protecting your stuff

greetz; bart

 

 

 

[Marc1]

Two parts epoxy paint rules! I painted a steel ramp that links the shore to a mooring pontoon with that stuff and it is like the first day after 5 years dangling over salt water. 

[HojPoj]

BartW, I would think that electronics potting compounds are non corrosive, but good luck getting your stuff out of it.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Move to the desert.

[Glenn]

I just spoke with the local Sherman Williams. I requested a product that was clear and would protect metal.  They recommended two of their products,  DTM Wash Primer, and Armor Seal Rexthane.

DTM WASH PRIMER is a low VOC, water based wash primer free of heavy metals and mineral acids. Designed to be applied over aluminum and galvanizing, or used as a tie-coat over zinc rich primers. Accepts high performance "hot" solvent topcoats directly, such as epoxies and urethanes.

Rexthane is for industrial, commercial, or marine applications where a heavy-duty polyurethane floor finish is required.

First remove any dirt, debris, rest, grease etc to get a clean metal surface. Apply a DTM Wash Primer. When dry apply an Armor Seal Rexthane. Both are clear and should protect the metal well.

There may be other paints or coatings by other companies available.

[BartW]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:12 PM, HojPoj said:

BartW, I would think that electronics potting compounds are non corrosive, but good luck getting your stuff out of it.

Agree 100% ; but the question was storing metal outside and protection from rust for a couple of years. He didn't mention getting them out  

I do like the outer space suggestion tough. Good luck getting that back.

Apparantly there are better paints than the two part epoxy paint for diving bottles; but if you rough sandblast stuff; and then apply a couple of layers of industrial hi quality paint; it'll still be there after a century.

[ThomasPowers]

 "I do like the outer space suggestion tough. Good luck getting that back."

No problem at all; just stand next to a roadrunner and wait! Dressing up like a coyote may speed things up, (or down...).

[Daswulf]

Well, if you put it in the right orbit it will be self returning like Sputnik. Not sure how much would burn up on re entry. Could call Corning about some heat shields for it. 

[ThomasPowers]

ITC100 perhaps?

[BartW]

ITC100 is a zirconium silicate thing with some other stuff in it, designed to reflect IR radiation. 

In fact; it may even help; but it won't save the anvil. You need some shielding to whitstand a LOT of heat and even more pressure. I think I read somewhere that it's only a small percentage of the heat generated by friction; but the majority is generated by the compression of air infront of the object. So; if you make a ceramic cone; and some way to divert heat to the other side of the anvil (like heatpipes and cooling blocks); you actually could make it. You anvil would need to be re-heat treated after unfortunately.

[Daswulf]

If the astronauts don't burn up I'm sure a pod could be made to save the anvil. 

[Marc1]

Talking about out there solutions why not hard chrome the body of the anvil. Permanent rust protection. Then grease the face and cone ad libitum.