What to do with these things ...

[arftist]

On 11/22/2018 at 6:59 PM, jlpservicesinc said:

Bronze welds are really more like brazing unless of course the article is in fact bronze you are welding together.. 

or if they are pressure welds.. 

Actually brazing is really bronze welding.

Been down this road before.

[ThomasPowers]

When you braze does the base metal you are working with melt?  If so it's not a "fusion weld".  Brazing is more like soldering---though some places try to sell it as different.  If you call a stone an egg, it's still not an egg.

Now forge welding is a special case of solid phase welding. (See Tylecote's "Solid Phase Welding of Metals" for an exhaustive discussion of it.)

(It really annoys me when companies redefine common language and then demand that others use their version.  The local Sam's club gas pumps have a sign that says you MUST stay where you can see the nozzle while pumping gas; well you can see the hand set but the nozzle is stuck down into the pipe leading to the gas tank and is NOT visible when pumping gas...)

[jlpservicesinc]

I understand the notion of it being welding.. It all comes down to how someone was taught and the language used.. 

Again, language plays into how one describes something.. 

Brazing is not a weld.. It is brazing..  Usually with a different metal than base metal with a lower melting point..  But again language is just that.. 

WE in the USA use the proper definition..  LOL.. Just kidding..      I use a tig torch and when I weld bronze use a bronze welding rod that is compatible with the same specs as the bronze to be welded.

I also use Al bronze on steel parts as a way to tig braze or artificially make it look nicer as a constrast vs just a tig weld on CrMoly or 4140 tubing. 

I"ve forge brazed screw boxes for vises.. 

Call it what ever you'd like.. I get tired...  Not worth it.. 

Wikipedia

Brazing is a metal-joining process in which two or more metal items are joined together by melting and flowing a filler metal into the joint, the filler metal having a lower melting point than the adjoining metal.

Brazing differs from welding in that it does not involve melting the work pieces and from soldering in using higher temperatures for a similar process, while also requiring much more closely fitted parts than when soldering. The filler metal flows into the gap between close-fitting parts by capillary action. The filler metal is brought slightly above its melting (liquidus) temperature while protected by a suitable atmosphere, usually a flux. It then flows over the base metal (known as wetting) and is then cooled to join the work pieces together.^[1] A major advantage of brazing is the ability to join the same or different metals with considerable strength.

 

Thomas, I read the book and while it was a good read I was hoping it would get into forge welding more..  The information was extensive for other applications and was very intrigued with it reading it cover to cover.. Great book added to the library.. 

[arftist]

On 11/27/2018 at 10:30 AM, ThomasPowers said:

When you braze does the base metal you are working with melt?

I do indeed melt the base metal, think you reversed your words.

If you didn't melt the base then it would not be fusion.

Either way it is an ongoing perpetual misnomer since brass isn't used in either case.

Can we settle for bronzing?

[arftist]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:20 PM, jlpservicesinc said:

I understand the notion of it being welding.. It all comes down to how someone was taught and the language used..

I think the use of a TIG torch changes the dynamic...it is very easy to melt cast iron with a TIG torch; with oxy-fuel your description would be more correct.

[ThomasPowers]

Actually iron is probably more "base" than bronze if you are comparing it to noble metals. Check the Galvanic Series.

"Actually brazing is really bronze welding."  If you are brazing iron or steel and NOT melting the iron or steel then it's NOT welding! Now as JLP mentioned: if you are brazing brass/bronze then it really is a fusion weld.

[arftist]

I am sorry for your misunderstanding but I didn't say I was brazing. 

I said I was bronze welding.

I do indeed melt the cast iron; ie it is fusion and therefore welding.

Suggest you take a breath and read the words I used.

[arftist]

7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

"Actually brazing is really bronze welding."  If you are brazing iron or steel and NOT melting the iron or steel then it's NOT welding! Now as JLP mentioned: if you are brazing brass/bronze then it really is a fusion weld.

Base metals in the context of welding means the metals being joined as opposed to the filler metals

[jlpservicesinc]

Not sure about your specifications on welding in New England..   We here in the USA use  a set of guidelines posted by a National organization usually also with charts, graphs etc, etc..   Technically your still brazing and it's not my words or description..  AWS writes and specs the "Specs".. and the previous words come off Wiki.. 

Again, it's more than likely a word or language problem.. 

As per the specs.. The base material should not be melted into the brazing rod or puddle and is considered bad mojo depending on the process and if doing different process than it would be called something else..  

If one was to qualify for cert in brazing using a separate filler rod not of the base material in spec for the same base metal it technically is brazing no matter how you slice it in the Standards.. 

But you can choose to look at it as any way youd like.. The specs are there for anybody to read/see..  I'm not a big fan of certs per say but a common language is needed to keep everyone on the same page or at least in the same direction.. 

You wanna call adding brass or bronze or copper or zinc to a cast iron or steel, etc, etc and wanna call it welding..   Thats up to you..  Sorry if I offended your sense of job title.. It might need a better clarification so everyone understands what or where you are coming from..  I've seen some pretty amazing stuff done but usually the people I deal with are like schooled or language usage is the same.. 

https://pubs.aws.org/p/1687/b22b22m2016-specification-for-brazing-procedure-and-performance-qualification

 

It's really not that important to me.. I would just rather not see bad info passed onto others then to have to go through the whole process again.. Which is quite common with the internet.. 

 

[anvil]

5 hours ago, arftist said:

Base metals in the context of welding means the metals being joined as opposed to the filler metals

The way you have described it in your posts is how I've always understood the "semantics" as well.

When the two bases fuse, you are welding, no matter if you use a filler. 

Anything else is soldering/brazing.

[arftist]

2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Not sure about your specifications on welding in New England..   We here in the USA use  a set of guidelines posted by a National organization usually also with charts, graphs etc, etc..   Technically your still brazing and it's not my words or description..  AWS writes and specs the "Specs".. and the previous words come off Wiki.. 

I was taught cast iron repair by the president of United Welding Process in Boston Mass some 35 years ago.

Perhaps you have heard of them?

Their main customer is Caterpillar.

That is why I write articles on cast iron repair. 

Please quote Wiki again. That was a first.

[jlpservicesinc]

see here again is the difference with language..   What you are calling welding might have been simply called that on the job and that being you are old school simply continue to call it that.. 

LOtta the old guys i used to work with call it just welding.. Though they are technically referring to brazing..    

The boss will say go weld that block..  The workman goes and brazes it..   Stating later when finished.. It's all welded up..  LOL.. 
 

 Don't really care.. Much like you.. I do what I want and call it what I want..     " Is that a trivet?"  heck no that is a 3 footed, item used to keep food off the hearth floor.. Also known as a slumpkinhourst.. 

It's all good.. Been a long week.. 

46 minutes ago, arftist said:

And yes, it is called something else... Bronze Welding. Is joining cast iron with nickel rods welding or brazing?

You are the expert.. I'll deffer to your judgement..

Seriously, Love to read the article you wrote.. I bet its full of useful information.. 

Please don't take it the wrong way..  42 years smithing and I still get told by people only doing it for 0-2 years that I'm doing it wrong as they watched a video on youtube or took a 2 day class. Heck I get told by people doing it for over 40 years that I'm doing it wrong.   LOL..    Aint nothing but a thing..  

[ausfire]

OK, back to the original post … I have been playing around with a few more of those cast bed bits. Got quite a few now. I'm thinking I might polish up a piece of timber and mount them for a hook rack. Here's how they turned out. Some better than others, but at least they were saved from the scrap. Unique anyway.

 

[jlpservicesinc]

well done.. I imagine you are loving working with the wrought iron now...  

[ausfire]

I'm getting better with the wrought … still not good at drawing a sharp point without filing. I do like the satin textured finish that it has. Someone said that it's easier to fire weld than mild steel, so that's another thing to try. I have a few bars that would make interesting fire pokers if I can forge weld the business end.