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I Forge Iron

Craft vs. Art


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I think, sometimes, that blacksmithing has a peculiar set of shackles it likes to drag around with it. 

Hooks of all kinds are a great example. They may be great impulse items, and they're quick to make. But how many hooks does one household need? To make matters worse, you're now counting on the project of hanging them being piled on the honey-do list before any visitor even sees your work. And there's a price ceiling.

Same with bottle openers. Regardless of how pretty, they're going to end up in a kitchen drawer someday. 

Most little trinket things are fairly easy to make, easy to price, and attractive for both these reasons to the hobbyist or part time smith. Therefore many smiths make them. But I wonder, outside of demonstrations, how much value they add to the craft, or even if they do harm because of pigeonholing it into a bobbles and trinkets kind of niche. 

I was fortunate enough to attend a smithing art show a few years back. It was poorly advertised, and thus not well attended, but I was utterly blown away by the pieces. The thing is, there were historical reproductions, abstract works, a couple pieces of furniture, and some good examples of branching out into other craft, like leather, wood, and fabric, to complement the steel. 

But there was a complete lack of hooks, ladles, fire sets, bottle openers, letter openers, pendants, brooches, etc

I don't mean to disparage the little things, but commercially, and for the purposes of carrying the craft forward, I think art should play a big(ger?) role. 

I also think a lot of folks would be better served pricing higher, worrying less about shop rate and how long something took them to make, and pushing the boundaries of art in their local market to make a name for themselves. 

Example of what doesn't work: If I'm going to sit there with a calculator and say "If I make 10 hooks per hour, sell them for 20 bucks a piece, I can probably work out a livable hourly wage, absorb my operating costs, and be a little bit ahead".

Then I'll go to a show, sell 3 hooks, be left with an inventory overage, have grossed $60 for my troubles, and start blaming the customers for wanting to buy things made in China. The next show? I'll make S-hooks AND J-hooks in the name of diversification!

Big businesses have to plan based on sales forecasts. I think a lot of craft fair vendors (not just blacksmiths!) might close up shop if they started doing the same. 

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I've met 1 smith selling multimillion US dollar art pieces. I've met a couple of smiths doing working the 100 thousand US dollar range and hundreds if not thousands of smiths working in the generally below US$1000 range.

The market narrows as you go up in price. If you spend a week making trinkets and they don't sell you are out a week; if you spend 6 months making an art piece and it doesn't sell you may be out of business.

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Thomas, as is his wont, has distilled things down to the basics in a few sentences.

He has expressed the essence of the creative-real world interface.  If all artist blacksmiths were financially independent we would all do what gave us joy and never mind the financial value we would gain from it.  If we loved making widgets we'd make them all day and give them all away to anyone we met.  If all we were concerned with was financial reward we would only make things that we could sell for the highest price and creative joy and happiness would not play any part.

Perhaps that answers my initial question at the start of this thread.  Maybe "Art" is that which is created out of the desire to create with no consideration of financial return.  If someone wants to buy it, fine, but it was made for other reasons.  If it never sells, that is fine too because it accomplished its purpose by being brought into existence.

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3 hours ago, George N. M. said:

Thomas, as is his wont, has distilled things down to the basics in a few sentences.

He has expressed the essence of the creative-real world interface.  If all artist blacksmiths were financially independent we would all do what gave us joy and never mind the financial value we would gain from it.  If we loved making widgets we'd make them all day and give them all away to anyone we met.  If all we were concerned with was financial reward we would only make things that we could sell for the highest price and creative joy and happiness would not play any part.

Perhaps that answers my initial question at the start of this thread.  Maybe "Art" is that which is created out of the desire to create with no consideration of financial return.  If someone wants to buy it, fine, but it was made for other reasons.  If it never sells, that is fine too because it accomplished its purpose by being brought into existence.

i must disagree with both Thomas and your interpretation of what is art. Both are a popular misconception that art is somehow vane, and the realm of either the unhinged or the financial independent that makes art as a form of self entertainment, or ... even worse, that it is financially unsustainable. 

I much more prefer to see the difference between art and craft according to the effect the product has on the viewer. If it entices emotions it is art, if it has a purpose and such purpose is attractive to fulfill a need, then it is craft. Sure, some overlapping purposes as always, but I doubt art can be defined according to the desire of the author. 

"I am going to make art now" does not seem to be credible in my view. I just hung a door and made a great job of it, and I declared ... - This is art!

No one around me seemed to agree somehow...

:) 

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At the risk of seeming facetious:

craft

/kraft/

noun

1. an activity involving skill in making things by hand.

"the craft of bookbinding"

synonyms:activity, occupation, profession, work, line of work, pursuit

"the historian's craft"

 

art1

/ärt/

noun

noun: art; plural noun: arts; plural noun: the arts

1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

"the art of the Renaissance"

...

So a painter practices his craft, but produces art. Because its primary purpose is appreciation by a group of people for its beauty and/or emotional power, it is art.

A coat hook may be finely crafted. But the primary purpose is not merely to be admired or to evoke emotional response. 

The irony is, when one displays non-art as art, it becomes art. And by causing even an emotional response such as mockery ("this is a painting of a polar bear in a snowstorm"), it has done its job. 

This is why art is fickle, what is considered "good art" is even more elusive, and why so many regard the art world with derision. 

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10 hours ago, George N. M. said:

Maybe "Art" is that which is created out of the desire to create with no consideration of financial return.  If someone wants to buy it, fine, but it was made for other reasons.  If it never sells, that is fine too because it accomplished its purpose by being brought into existence.

Art or craft, I haven't made anything yet that I wouldn't mind keeping. :)

Well, if it didn't make it to the scrap pile first. 

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I have been creative all of my life and grew up with parents that also created. Mom taught me how to do leather work, cooking, and a short foray into knitting. Dad taught me wood carving, mechanics, machining, we got into blacksmithing together, and he also taught me to never stop learning. I draw constantly, got into wood working, ceramics, photography, and do some inventing. My mind is a whirlwind of ideas that at times has caused other issues with staying focused. I was a member of the Las Vegas Artist Guild when my work scheduled allowed, and while working in Southern Utah fell into the art scene there. I am the stereotypical frustrated artist who has to endure the rigors of a job I hate in order to pay the bills. As such I have not been able to make the items I think about for a long time.  

 

The debate between art vs craft is a long one. I agree with Marc1 in that art is something that elicits some emotion from the viewer. It is not always beautiful as evidenced by works by Goya, Rubens, Bosch and others. Art has been used for propaganda purposes by all participants of conflicts. It has also been used to make political and social changes around the world. 

 

Craft to me is the use of ones skills to make other items (mostly utilitarian), and those works made.

 

I consider computer coders modern craftspeople. The ability to use 1's and 0's in various combinations and mixing them with electrons to make what we are doing right now possible is pretty amazing to me - so would that make it art?.... Now some crafted items can be very simple, while others can be very ornate. I worked as a gunsmith and have been around firearms all my life. When I look at a machine made and hand assembled AR-15, Remington 870, etc I see a utilitarian item, but when I see a handcrafted Holland and Holland, or Schuetzen rifle with full engraving and inlays I see an art piece just due to the the emotional effect it has one me. And yes, as Thomas stated, some very simple pieces are very artistic.  A craftsperson can definitely also be an artist, as an artist can also be a craftsperson, it just depends on the reaction the items they create on the person viewing it. This debate will go on as long as there are people to debate it.

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The problem I have with the definition of art as being something which elicits an emotion in the viewer is that I have a hard time saying that something results in a reaction of disgust or hate or revulsion as being "art."  A positive reaction to beauty or something which makes you thoughtful can IMO be art but not something which brings out a negative reaction.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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Ahh, but that is the rub. Art is not always beautiful as evidenced by the artists I referenced above. Goya's Saturn devouring his son painting is not a pretty image, but considered fine art by a master painter.

As Cesar A. Cruz said " Art should comfort the disturbed, and disturb the comfortable." 

The whole idea that one picture is worth a thousand words remains true, and that is why imagery can be so powerful, especially in art pieces. You can have 100 people look at a piece of art and get 100 different reactions to it. Doesn't matter if it is a painting, photograph, or a sculpture. Everyone will have their own take on what it means to them due to their individual life experiences. Elizabeth Broun summed it up when she said, "Art is not always about pretty things, it is about who we are, what happened to us, and how are lives are affected." 

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6 hours ago, George N. M. said:

The problem I have with the definition of art as being something which elicits an emotion in the viewer is that I have a hard time saying that something results in a reaction of disgust or hate or revulsion as being "art."  A positive reaction to beauty or something which makes you thoughtful can IMO be art but not something which brings out a negative reaction.

True, and I would much more prefer that the emotions in question be qualified as positive and that negative emotions be excluded. And that common sense would prevent museums and art galleries from exhibiting piles of manure and call them art. 

Then again ... a lot of art is the product of the most darkest feelings of loneliness, depression, substance abuse and other very negative aspects of human kind and some of the best paintings and music are but desperate screams of a soul in pain. Yet we see or hear them as sublime and magnificent. 

Go figure!

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Marc1, you have hit on the real issue that I was trying to make.  IMO there are too many people who call themselves artists who are only trying to shock and disgust.  If I dump a pile of guts on a photo of (name your least favorite public figure) it is NOT art, it is a pile of guts on a photo, no more, no less.  Fortunately, economics enters here.  There are few folk who will pay good money for something that is only disgusting or shocking to be seen in their homes and offices every day.

And the stereotype of artists being emotionally dysfunctional has some truth in it.  Curiously, creativity and emotional turmoil seem to often be linked.

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On 12/11/2018 at 12:36 AM, Marc1 said:

I much more prefer to see the difference between art and craft according to the effect the product has on the viewer. If it entices emotions it is art, if it has a purpose and such purpose is attractive to fulfill a need, then it is craft. Sure, some overlapping purposes as always, but I doubt art can be defined according to the desire of the author. 

good topic. i agree with you, Marc,  heres my two cents.

art/fine art has one purpose and that is to create an emotion.

craft/applied art has two purposes and that it must do something and it must create an emotion.

and perhaps a third is

commercial art. it must create an emotion, but must also intend to sell or influence as well.

simply said, forge a leaf and it is art. make it a key ring and it becomes craft. stamp your logo on it and it becomes commercial art. by logo i don't mean makers mark.

and alas, we cannot define emotion. some may remember that national council of the arts grant that produced a cross in a mason jar full of, well you either remember or you don't. it definitely created emotions. i certainly don't consider it art. so perhaps we must all agree that just because something fulfills these, or any criteria, does not mean its art.

which brings us back full circle,,,  I wonder just how you define the difference between craft and art?  ;)

 

 

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In one sense, the art of blacksmithing and the craft of blacksmithing are one and the same. In another, you need the craft to create the art. Even if your first brush strokes on a canvas are called art, you still used the craft to create the art. Then art and craft can be independent from each other. The artistic beauty of Yellowstone, or the craftiness of a backyard mechanic. While a craft is a craft, no matter who you ask, art can be completely subjective. Andy Warhols Campbell soup can is a good example, some people feel that it is a masterpiece, and they are right. It is one because they say it's one. My personal opinion is it's just a picture of a can of soup, no more, no less. I have about a hundred pictures on my phone of similar, unassuming objects. I'm sure others feel the same way about what I feel art is, where I see the beauty in a forest others just see trees and dirt. Opinions can change too, I never saw the beauty of a broken down old truck for years, until one early morning when the fog was rolling out and I saw that truck appear out of the mists. Absolutely stunning... For about 15 minutes it was what I would call art, then it went back to being an old junker. 

I would have to agree with Dave in PA. It depends on your market as to whether it's art or craft. If your customers believe you are selling art, then that's exactly what they're buying. If they are buying it for it's craftsmanship, then they are buying the craft.

Oh, I almost forgot an obvious difference. Art is the pilot of the air Craft:D

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Many interesting points made.  Thomas's summary about the narrowing of consumers at higher ends of the market is well put.  That reminds me of something I'd meant to write earlier in response to the conundrum surrounding charging more for elite clientele.

I see a lot of people looking at business issues in a vacuum.  A blacksmith might come to some productivity rate that they feel is fair when they're making commodity stuff.  They then apply this productivity rate to "art" for elite clientele as though everything involved is precisely the same.

In reality, there are absolutely huge differences between commodity consumers and elite clientele.  It's much, much, more than just wealth.

Here are few examples.

Elite consumers buy largely on the reputation of the craftsman.  You can't build a reputation without a respected party vouching for you.  In practice, this means that the craftsman is only as good as their last success.  Just one unhappy customer can implode your market.  This means that there is significantly more risk in every undertaking.  Risk is expensive.

In many elite markets reputation and identity are inextricably linked.  Say the wrong thing to the right person and you're no longer the brilliant artist, you're the ostracized interloper.  This applies to all your subcontractors, associates, friends, colleagues, etc.  A talkative apprentice, or an opinionated secretary can ruin you.  Until you're familiar with the parlance and taboos of your market, there's tremendous risk in saying anything.

Elite consumers are paying for a higher level of service.  Some will meddle, waffle, delay, defer, demand, change, and aggravate the craftsman at inopportune times.  It's incredibly difficult to meet strict deadlines when the client isn't cooperating.  In my experience, it can be a full-time job just making sure the client stays happy and the job stays on track.

Elite consumers can also be consortium's, committees, or groups that have little in common beyond the scope of a single project.  Pleasing many masters is a daunting task.  Since these clients rarely have full financial discretion, you can be stuck dealing with several demanding clients, and a reluctant banker who never pays on time.  

Wealthy clients have easier access to legal representation.  In my limited experience with litigation, I can say that it's just incredible how slow everything is.  I know of several wealthy clients who used legal delays to maximize the financial strain on a unpaid craftsman.  Just before it got to an actual court, the client agreed to settle, then they simply delay paying until they're facing action again.  There's a very real risk to a craftsman that you'll never see your earnings without spending a fortune on legal fees.  There are dishonest people at every level of society.  

The fortunes of elite clientele can turn on a dime.  I've seen multi-million dollar projects that took nineteen months from concept to contract that were scrapped because the stock price of one company fell.  I've also seen such projects put on hold for six months or more before resuming with a shortened deadline and a fixed budget.  The cash-flow of such a project can be financially devastating.

Finally, elite clientele often demand specialized solutions to singular problems. This frequently means that a craftsman will need specialized tools, services, materials, or vendors to do the job.  Finding the market leading vendor of a rarefied profession takes a considerable amount of research that has nothing to do with being a craftsman. 

 

 

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In the last 24 hours, I've personally experienced a few things that didn't make my earlier list.

One project was increased by 15%, then another 15%, then it was cut in half.  Now we're being told that the other half will happen, but we don't get to know when.

A different project was 15% over budget, I presented ideas that saved them 18%.  They accepted 12% of the options, then dithered for four months.  Now they're wanting to know how much the price will change if they can't make a decision in time to lock material prices for the year.  The 2019 price hikes come to less than 3%.  Somehow, that price hike is more of an impediment than everything going before.

Finally, we have a third project that was contractually set up to minimize delays.  We met our original deadlines for the design, however the client couldn't get their landlord to answer a handful of "deal or no-deal" questions.  A multi-million dollar project that affects literally hundreds of professionals is in limbo because the landlord won't respond to something that would clearly benefit them. 

These three jobs are worth more than every project my company completed in 2013.  At the root of all three projects, there's a single individual who makes the decision.  It's very difficult to know what influences their decision. 

Odds are good that all three will happen eventually.  In hindsight, we'll probably be glad we did them.  However it's incredibly stressful to have an entire years worth of work committed to three projects that can't get started.

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On 12/17/2018 at 12:33 PM, rockstar.esq said:

I see a lot of people looking at business issues in a vacuum.  A blacksmith might come to some productivity rate that they feel is fair when they're making commodity stuff.  They then apply this productivity rate to "art" for elite clientele as though everything involved is precisely the same.

In reality, there are absolutely huge differences between commodity consumers and elite clientele.  It's much, much, more than just wealth.

The above is true of course, but the art market is not necessarily for the elite ... although one can only hope :)

Reiterating that art is not necessarily the result of the artist will to produce it, but rather the elusive effect that such efforts can have on the public or the owner.  And in case of the commision of sculptures to be exhibited in public places for example, the organisation paying for it, usually council of local government,  have totally different motivations and agendas to commision the work than some wealthy ranch owner who wants a big steel horse in his driveway. 

Sure, you can't say you make a horse and sell it for $3 a kilo but if it is for a rich dude, then it is $10,000 :) 

I agree with all you said about reputation in business, however, if you are lucky enough to be able to produce art, your character will be of little consequence and you can behave as a brat and your art will go like hot cakes anyhow. In fact a lot of true artist are lousy in their persons skills. 

There are examples of artist who are well balanced and develop a well marketed business of "making art" but they are few and far between. 

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Marc1

I see why you pull out the elite aspect.  I was looking for a term to confer a consumer that's not in the market for commodities.

There are home decor stores that offer inexpensive objects that serve no utilitarian purpose.  I think it's fair to say those objects fit within the spectrum of art to most people.  I also think it's fair to make a distinction between the commodity art, and art/craft that is bespoke, custom, or commissioned.

I want to specifically clarify that sometimes clients commission "art" or "craft" that ends up very, similar to a commodity good.  

In such cases, I think it's fair to say that spending more doesn't necessarily mean you're getting something different.  Essentially this goes to show that art isn't only for the wealthy.  I also think this shows that art isn't defined by it's price.

The difference I was trying to point out, is that the non-commodity consumer has the potential to introduce a whole heck of a lot of very real work and risk to the craftsman/artist beyond making the object.  Commodity craftsmen/artists who look only at the "making this thing" costs are likely to underestimate their new situation.

Cash flow is particularly tough on a growing business.  Many businesses use a line of credit to cover the businesses overhead between billable milestones.  They're literally taking on debt to get to the next payday.   Sometimes that's a sound investment, sometimes it's not.  I like to remind people that it's never the job you lost that put's you under, it's the job you won.  

 

 

 

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Yes, the business aspect of making something is clear, with all it's inherent risks and personal stress. 

Then there is pricing of your product, that if it is truly art, will depend of the artist's credential and position in the market. 

Take "The scream" by Edvard Munch, sold recently for over 100 millions. To me it is a badly executed caricature of someone with a headache or disliking the next door rock music concert by a beginner painter in early high school. 

According to Wiki, :"... Edvard Munch in 1893. The agonised face has become one of the most iconic images of art, seen as symbolising the anxiety of modern man."

Yea right, pull the other one. 

But such is the art market. The more you pay the more your art piece increases in value the day you sell. A bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. 

What does that mean for the artist? Not much if you just get started. If you are recognised and in demand you will need to test the boundaries and price as high as you can and see what the buyers think of your product. 

Craft does not have that aspect and will always cap the price somehow due to it's utilitarian aspect. There is only so much one is willing to pay for a bottle opener or a knife. 

Architectural work may be an in between, since the value of a balustrade or gate is incorporated to the much higher value of the building and seen to increase it. Clearly utilitarian but with an artistic aspect to it that increases the "wow" factor of the real estate in question. 

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So, if I am following Rockstar's logic, and I think he has some very valid points, if you want to sell "Art" to the elite market you should stay with that market and not do mere utilitarian craft.  If you have just sold a customer elite "Art" for $Xk you should not be seen selling bottle openers and dinner triangles at the craft fair because it will diminish your reputation in the elite market.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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Pretty much. How many mini vans or commuter cars does Rolls Royce, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti, or McClaren make?   Remember the Cadillac Cimmaron? A dressed up Caviler that didn't help Caddy in the end. High end customers want exclusivity , so one offs or expensive fit the bill.  A stock maker I know sent a wealthy customer of his to the gunsmith I worked for to have a new screw installed into his VERY expensive shotgun. Eldon did it and charged him $20. The guy immediately called Ed up and asked if Eldon was any good. Ed called Eldon up and asked what he was doing only charging $20, and said he should have said $120 because guys like he sent over are used to paying that type of money to get things done.  For many, cost = quality. Exclusivity = bragging rights.

An artist friend and I were having a discussion one night in the Las Vegas Arts District, and he told me that selling art is nothing but BS. He said at his gallery in Sedona AZ he has the image of the aloof artist. At a reception if someone asks him a question he gives them a one, maybe two word answer. "They buy my story, they buy my art". With art one needs to sell themselves as much , if not more than the art itself.  Mark Kostabi learned quickly that his friend Andy Warhol was not selling paintings, he was selling Andy Warhol. If one can create the right amount of buzz about their art/brand the rewards can be phenomenal. Two movies artists need to watch are Con Artist a film about Mark Kostabi , and Exit through the gift shop a film about Banksy.

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