What Should I Offer for This Anvil?

[Chelonian]

Hi, Someone at an estate sale is selling this anvil, what would be a reasonable price for me to offer? Since this would be my first real anvil, I'm not too worried about it missing the heel. He says it weighs about 200Lbs. Also, would it be tippy without the heel to counterbalance the weight of the horn? I haven't seen it in person yet, but here are some photos of it: 

 

 

If you can help it would be extremely appreciated, thanks!

[stevomiller]

You need to get some real weight, either on a scale or the original makers stamping and then take off 25% weight for what’s missing. Since it already FAILED catastrophically you need to examine the face and it’s weld to the body with extreme scrutiny.

As for cost, it’s based on the above AND I’d weasel them down like crazy. That anvil May very well serve your purposes well and still be solid, but it’s the same as buying a car with a salvage title. It is a wreck, and no serious smith will give you much money for it. Again, not saying it’s not solid, not useable, etc. But spend according to what it is, don’t get goofy anvilitis just because you want one.

[Chelonian]

So maybe bring a hammer and make sure the ring and rebound are fairly consistent?  I don't have a large ball bearing to use, but will a hammer sort of work as a substitute?

Assuming it is around 200lb and I don't find any major issues, approximately what do you mean "weasel them down like crazy"?  I know it's really hard to tell just from the photos, but I just don't know where to start.

Thank you!

[ThomasPowers]

Easy for people to be a hundred pounds off in the weight; only real weight is a weighed weight---a bathroom scale will do; bring one with you!

Looks a lot like my Powell, which started around 165# before the truncation.  I love it as it has a good, hard face, a fair horn and students who want to do heavy work on it are unlikely to damage it more! It's a really great bladesmithing anvil---almost all sweet spot!

Back before anvils wen crazy I paid US$40 for it from a farrier who knew anvils.  Nowadays I would go $1 a weighed pound for it.

[Kozzy]

That's a useable wreck.  Keep reminding yourself that another will come around at the right price and better shape...if you have patience. Don't let buyer's fever take over.

Purchase price...That's a tough one on a damaged anvil.  I certainly wouldn't ever go over a buck a pound due to the first line above.  In some areas of the country, a buck a pound would still be way high.  That buck assumes it has a lot of weight (bigger anvils tend to go for higher prices per pound than lightweight ones) and the face is quite usable and with decent rebound.

As to being non-symmetrical in weight due to the tail being elsewhere, it just means you need to be more clever with the mounting.  It shouldn't be a huge problem for average smithing.

YMMV and others might have completely opposite opinions.  Broken anvils tend to be like that--often because in some parts of the country, you can find a good anvil on every corner for pocket change (exaggerated, of course).

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

56 minutes ago, Chelonian said:

what do you mean "weasel them down like crazy"? 

The common term is haggle over the price. Like others have said I wouldn't pay over $1.00 U.S. a pound. If it actually weighs 200 pounds I would start the haggling at $100 and if it has no other defects go up from there not to exceed $200.

[ThomasPowers]

Might discuss with them how much a car's value goes down with a wrecked rear end...

[Chelonian]

Thomas, bringing a scale is a great idea, thanks! I'll definitely bring one along.

Kozzy, I'm not really in too much of a rush (I've been casually looking around for about 6 months), so the only thing that will be pressuring me is the drive, which is about an hour. If it's not in decent shape, or if he's expecting a really high price, I'll either haggle it way down or just leave.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

When you tap on it with a hammer (with the sellers permission) listen for any difference in the sound over the whole face. If it sounds different the thin hardened face is probably becoming de-laminated (loose in spots) if that were the case I would pass on it. Driving an hour to look at an anvil around here is nothing.

[ThomasPowers]

Can you call and get a price on it?  Talk is cheap!  (And you would prefer not to drive out there and find that it sold before you left the house...)

Note that older anvils had the face forge welded on in sections and if a section's edge corresponded with where the heel was forge welded on, it was a bit more prone to failure; but the next section over may be perfectly ok with the weld between the face and body. Anvils with a single piece face tend to have more delamination issues after catastrophic failures like that.

[Chelonian]

He said he wants someone to "make an offer" so I think he wants me to say the first price. It would be pretty easy to tell if the hardened face was completely missing, right? It looks like it's there in the photos, but I'm just a little paranoid.

[Kozzy]

5 minutes ago, Chelonian said:

 It would be pretty easy to tell if the hardened face was completely missing, right? It looks like it's there in the photos, but I'm just a little paranoid.

That's an interesting point.  Is that all the photos?  If it is, it is also a bit weird that there is not shot of the face...almost like the seller is hiding that detail.  I'd be a little paranoid too if there wasn't face photo:  Maybe request one?

But you should be able to tell petty easily if the hard face is gone.  Tapping will be pretty darned "thuddy".  Rebound would tend to feel pretty mediocre.  Any chance you can tap a good anvil first just so you know what a good one feel like?  Even the 3 I have access to all feel a bit different..with the Vulcan being clearly the worst on rebound.  The Kohlswa bounces a hammer back like it's a rubber superball.

[Chelonian]

This is the only one I didn't post, simply because I didn't want to post too many. The thing in this photo that worries me is that I don't see much of a clear demarcation between the face and the body. Maybe that just means it's still well attached?

I did get to hammer on a real anvil when I took a took a blacksmithing class, so I think I know what it should feel and sound like. The one I used at the class was a Peter Wright I think.

Thanks!

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of the english anvils dressed the sides so you don't see the face weld.  However since they were a forge weld if there was delamination there should be a rougher surface that what is shown.  I think it's a good one.

[John McPherson]

From what I can see when I blow up the pix, there is about a 3" chip blown out on one side. So it is safe to say the face is still there.

Call and agree on a price per pound or don't even get in the car, bring a scale, hammer or ball bearing and cash money, and be prepared to turn around and get in the car if he tries to renegotiate after you get there.

9 hours ago, Chelonian said:

I don't see much of a clear demarcation between the face and the body. Maybe that just means it's still well attached?

 

 

[Chelonian]

46 minutes ago, John McPherson said:

From what I can see when I blow up the pix, there is about a 3" chip blown out on one side. So it is safe to say the face is still there.

Call and agree on a price per pound or don't even get in the car, bring a scale, hammer or ball bearing and cash money, and be prepared to turn around and get in the car if he tries to renegotiate after you get there.

 

I just don't want to offer a price before I see it in person and inspect it. Seems like there are too many ways for that to go badly.

[JHCC]

That is wise. 

[FlatLiner]

Thomas I know a guy in Wyoming who a few weeks ago bought a trunkated anvil for $40.

[stevomiller]

Look online and find something interesting to visit near where that anvil is located, a store to visit, or a restaurant you might want to go to. Stuff your pockets with cash as suggestested, knowing the max you will spend, bring your hammer and scale and go looking. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Perhaps reminding the person it is badly damaged, plus the fact you want to actually use it and just starting out might influence him to sell reasonably. If not, go to plan two and go to that museum, store, restaurant whatever. 

In my first post I wasn’t trying to say I wouldn’t buy it, or you should t buy it. I justwanyed you to be extra cautious that there weren’t other flaws, that it weighed what they said (let’s be honest 100lbs feels like 200lbs if on the ground especially if you don’t move heavy stuff a lot). My comment about other smiths buying it is that your resale value, if you decided to offload it in the future, is much less than what a complete anvil will bring, and many smiths wouldn’t even consider it (wrongly I feel if the price were good).

As TP says the whole face is sweet spot, and it should be much quieter than a complete anvil. Just pay according to what you are getting :-)

[Chelonian]

Well, I went and got it! It weighed 185#, so the guy wasn't far off. I paid 125$, which means it was 67.6 cents per pound. I'll post some photos of it soon. The face seems in very good condition, there is really only one major chip out of the edge, and it's not too pitted with rust either. The ring is very consistent, and rebound seems quite good. I haven't looked at it too much, but the only marking I see on it is a "17" on the side near where the heel was. I'm quite happy with the deal.

Thanks everyone for the help! I think this will be a big step up from the tiny chunk of railroad I was using.

[Marc1]

1 hour ago, Chelonian said:

I think this will be a big step up from the tiny chunk of railroad I was using.

Well done, you can say that again!

Don't forget to post pics of how you mount it. Thomas bracing is what I would follow. 

[Chelonian]

After a quick scrubbing with a wire brush, it became apparent that it was a Wilkonson Queens Dudley anvil. I did a forum search, and found somewhat limited information about them. If anyone knows approximately when it was made, I'd love to hear it. Also, are Wilconson Queens Dudley anvils considered to be decent? The "17" I saw earlier ended up being the third number in the weight code. I can only make out the "1" on the right of the side of the anvil, and "17" on the left of the side. I cannot read, or even find, the middle number. Here are some photos of it:

 

[Marc1]

When you buy another anvil, you can stand that one on the broken side and use it as a cone mandrel

[Chelonian]

Correction to what I said in my last post, the weight numbers on the side go like this:

[1, I can't find the middle one, 17] Maybe it was 230 pounds? That seems about right since it's 185 with the missing heel.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

You did well, came home with a very usable old anvil after doing some homework and the price was right. Love it when haggling pays off. You can make a portable hardy holder to go with it, like the one in the picture Thomas posted.