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mariom2

Mikey style 3/4 inch burner built

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mariom2,

How did things work out for you? We on IFI got a good burner discussion out of the deal, but we like to keep working with people until we help them to actually work out their problems.

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Mikey,

Thank you for your followup.  I got the long .030 mig tip but it has a different thread, so I have to make a new gas pipe.  Past week was busy, and the weekend was fishing time so I hope will continue as soon as I get some shop time.  Will keep you informed.

 

 

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It might be that that different thread will slide conveniently into copper refrigeration tube, where it can be silver brazed or soft soldered into position, making an end run around the need to match its thread.

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Back to do some work.  Made a new gas pipe.  I like the idea of a threaded tip better than brazed as you can disassemble it if you need.  Inserted a steel piece a shaped more aerodynamical.  This time it is a long mig .030 tip and the insert of cooper tube is all the way through.

Got rid of the pipe reducer lip and the three adjusting screws.

Here some pictures.  The flame picture does not seem to good.  The burner worked ok but to get a green flame you have to close the choke almost al the way. Will try to get better pictures tomorrow.

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Why o why would you ever want a green flame? A green flame is heavily reducing; good for nothing but creating carbon monoxide.

Your present flame looks somewhere between utterly perfect and slightly oxidizing. BUT, before you change it even the slightest bit, wait until the forge is complete and you can see how much scale the flame produces on your work (there is more than one possible cause for the orange streaks in a gas flame).

If--and only if--you have scale production as a further indication of a lean flame, then it becomes time to get out the torch tip cleaners and ream out about four more thousandths of an inch in the diameter of the fuel jet's orifice.

BTW congratulations on the construction of a burner that can make the magic flame :D

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Mikey,

Thank you very much for your time and help.  I am glad did not disappointed you.

Actually I did not want a green flame, but I thought the burner was going to react in a different way with the choke movements.  The flame was taken with the choke about mid position and it has a lot of different tones of blue until opened completely.

Now comes the forge :wacko: ....What do I want the forge for?....not having any basically I want to start learning, making some tools like tongs and eventually forge some small knifes.  Trying to make a forge with your standards will be difficult not having all the refractories you have on hand, so I will have to use what is available and just try to make a decent one for the purpose.

I have been searching locally and found a few vendors of refractory materials that probably could be used but let see if the sell them in small quantities.

Before  I start contacting them could you please check the following link to see what could be used: http://www.jjmedina.com.ec/ 

Please check in "Productos: materiales refractarios and fibra ceramica"  They have each product information in pdf.

Thank you in advance,

 

Mario

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The point of a forge is to get the most use possible from the heat of your flame.

You have a powerful burner, which is only going to become even hotter as it gets fine tuned. Think of the burner as an engine of heat and your forge as the equipment for exchanging the engine's potential into work.

You have the will to see a project through to its end, along with the needed tools. Most important of all, you are able to follow instructions in the pinch. I see no mountain before you; just a couple of mole hills. To begin with,  You have castable refractory available and even ceramic fiber insulation. This is going to be a pretty boring discussion if you can't come up with some problems obtaining things...

So I will assume that you will be reduced to nothing more than basic castable refractory. What will you do for insulation? Mix in your own. Cast a 1/2" to 3/4" inside layer of refractory between wooden forms; cure it and fire it using the burner. Next place the inside layer within a metal shell and pack in more refractory that has been mixed with an equal volume of sawdust. The sawdust will burn out during firing leaving air pockets throughout the outer layer of refractory, for insulation. This is not as good as using ceramic fiber insulation, but you will find it more than good enough in a forge run by your burner.

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With all the information found here and having a good burner I believe it  does not make sense to build a poor forge, but circumstances are not the same for everybody.  I found a few vendors offering refractory products, they all sell 25 kg of castable and complete coils of ceramic blanket minimum quantities. It is reasonable with the castable but not the blanket. I will keep inquiring and searching to see if I can find a small piece.

Anyway, in the meantime with the burner working OK in open air I feel the need to keep learning and going, and this meant finding how it behaves  withing a forge, so I decided to make a forge, any forge just now to try the burner until I can build a proper one, so I made a quick job with some old discarded hard bricks that were rescued from going to junk and finished up with a classic brick pike box experimenting  forge.  The burner worked well, and  I am very happy with it but have no idea about the flame. 

Here some pictures.  Any comments are welcome.

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Ordinarily I would take one look at the running forge and conclude that you had a problem with the burner. However, having seen the flame running in previous photos, I know that that giant secondary flame is not likely to be from the burner's fuel gas, but instead is probably from contaminants in or on the brick; it will likely take a few hours to burn off.

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After some searching I found 1" ceramic blanket, ceramic board, soft bricks, kast-o-lite 26, mizzou, super kast set and a 20# propane tank that came with a BBK  but was not able to use as we have different valves.

No kast-o-lite 30, only 26.

I have a piece of plastic pipe 6" diameter that could be used to cast the interior 3/4" layer with kast-o-lite 26 plus 2" layer of ceramic blanket.  This will make about the 12" of the tank diameter. Will have to be adjusted with final measurements once the tank is open.

As far as I have read kast-o-lite 26 is better than mizzou??.   Refractory cover like ITC cement, not available.  What I found is Max pumpable in 2# tube but I guess this has different use.

Regarding size, it will be within the 300-350 cubic inch recommended for the 3/4" burner.

Any comments on materials and size welcome.

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In that case,  Kast-O-lite 26 will do okay; especially if you can find ingredients to make up into a kiln wash. One of the things a good kiln wash will do is reflect some of the radiant heat away from the refractory surface and back into the forge. Kast-O-lite works better than Mizzou in forges. Mizzou doesn't insulate much, and is more inclined to crack than Kast-O-lite. Mizzou is best for glass working equipment, where its high alumina content providesmaximum protection against liquid glass's tendency to dissolve other materials.

25 kilograms is about 50 pounds; a standard size of bag for castable refractory.

Your burner will handle your forge size just fine.

58 minutes ago, mariom2 said:

I have a piece of plastic pipe 6" diameter that could be used to cast the interior 3/4" layer with kast-o-lite 26 plus 2" layer of ceramic blanket.  This will make about the 12" of the tank diameter. Will have to be adjusted with final measurements once the tank is open.

Your plan is sound. If you can't find any fumed silica to use as rigidizer in the ceramic blanket, then use an extra thick layer of blanket around the outside of the casting, and compress it with twine, before inserting the whole mess into the forge shell. When the twin burns off the blanket will expand like a spring, to center everything inside to forge. After a few heats, the springy blanket will become quite firm; keeping everything in place.

 

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So, if that's so hot, why push rigidizing so hard? This is plan "B". People who are able buy fumed silica can use plan "A", instead of settling for second best.

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Hi Mikey,

Thank you for the follow up.  Very slow.  Been busy with other things, and the holidays.

Opened up one side of the gas tank and I am working on the casting molds. The plastic pipe is perfect for the inside but I will have to make the outside.  No sonotubes around here, I will roll a very thin (.5mm) piece of galvanized plate to the size.  Will see how it goes.  I think will leave the other side of the tank, cut a round hole the size of the cast and pass it  trough, in this way the ceramic blanket will not be exposed.  Will have to decide if I do the same in the opened side and use it as a cap or a door.   Will post the progress.

Mario 

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Take photos. I like the idea of rolling sheet metal for one of the refractory forms. Loads of guys who don't have accesses to every latest thing to work with, so alternate plans are always welcome :)

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some delay but project keeps going......

Ready for casting, guess it should work.  Will try to cast this week.  Once the cast is finished I plan to put a little flat on the bottom.  The burner position in the mold looks right to me.  Any comments welcome.

 

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Looks good so far. I have always cast the bottoms and wall of my forges and furnaces separately. This allows me to avoid the added strain of a corner structure; these are famous as places for cracks to start at; so why go there?

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Yes, I already cut one side of the forge shell, otherwise there is no way to insert the cast with the blanket, but I do not want to cut the other side.  As I mentioned I might cut a round hole the size of the cast so all will be concentric.  Guess I use bricks as doors. After reading all the information regarding the danger of ceramic blanket dust, I do not want to leave any ceramic exposed.

If I leave the other side of the shell will need to be thermally insulated and that means to cast the bottom.  Actually I have been thinking about this, maybe to much.  Will see how the casting goes first, my first time.  The molds are reusable as they are cut on one side.  55 pounds of cast o lite is a lot, if it does not come right will do another one.

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It's a pleasure catching up on this thread Mariom, it's good to see someone who knows how to make things at work. I only have a couple suggestions. Check with companies who service furnaces, I don't know about laws where you live but here a company must use new ceramic blanket off the roll in furnaces so they put a large collection of scrap in the trash. I haven't had to purchase ceramic blanket in years, they give it to me by the trash bag.

The second suggestion is to use vinyl flooring to make your forms. Rolled vinyl side towards the refractory and taped it's easy to remove when the refractory sets. It's not an idea you need seeing as  you've already made your molds. Kastolite sticks to almost anything, you'll need something for a release agent or getting your forms off will be a problem. Wrapping the core with waxed paper, parchment paper or less desirable, aluminum foil, makes it easy to remove.

Beautiful burner by the way, well done. I agree with Mike, the odd flames are probably junk in the used brick burning. I have a stack that smells like sulfur which gets odd looks from folks who expect a propane flame to have no smell at all.

Frosty The Lucky.

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8 hours ago, mariom2 said:

I do not want to leave any ceramic exposed. 

I used ceramic fiber board for the end pieces in my first forge; since then I've discovered the utility of round kiln shelves to do the same job, but to be far tougher. Cutting and drilling high alumina kiln shelves are simple with carbide bits and friction cutoff discs (that are rated for brick and tile work) :D

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Frosty,

Thank you for your comments.  Regarding the blanket, I doubt there is a kind of law like this here, they probably use it until it falls to pieces!!  Will try anyway otherwise  purchase new.  I was planing to use a release agent.  A friend toll me he always uses car wax with good results in  regular concrete.  I wonder how good it is with cast o lite.  Have you ever heard about?

 

Mikey,

Kiln shelves are difficult to find around here.  I found ceramic fiber board.  Can you leave the ceramic board exposed to air, no bad dust?.  Just now my worries are making a good cast, will decide later if everything goes the way it should.

If the cast finishes up too long and needs to be cut, can you do it with a normal masonry grinder disk?

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I'm glad you brought that up. Believe it or not, you don't have to live in far away places to come up with trouble finding such parts. Loads of people can't find the right kind of high alumina kiln shelves in big American cities. Just because we live in a giant marketplace, doesn't mean there is any lack of salesmen who don't need shooting!!!

No need to leave ceramic fiber board exposed; just paint it with a thin layer of the cast refractory, or any kiln wash you like. What you do want to make sure of, is that your work pieces rest on something like a cross bar (outside the forge) that keeps them above the lip of the board, or make sure that the bottom of the board's exhaust opening is below the level of the cast refractory floor.

Or, you can cast your own version of a round kiln shelf, with the exhaust opening built in :D

They don't need shooting?!? That's right; we may wanna, but we shan't :)

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