energy loss at bick/horn?

[aaamax]

All right Boys and Girls, what do you think?

When working on the horn instead of the sweet spot over the face/edge, how much energy/efficiency, if any, do you think is lost? When using a Hardy tool I feel that there is a significant loss in energy compared to the sweet-spot

I recently acquired a Stepless 107kg Soderfors anvil that unbelievably has very good edges and I am loath to radius them until I have played with it for some time. My old Soderfors (85kg) has what most would consider badly mushroomed edges, but for the work I do, those radiuses are perfect. On this new anvil I have to use the horn to acquire a similar effect. When I use the new one's edges I am getting into cold shunts territory I am afraid.

Cheers

[ThomasPowers]

As you are comparing a mushroomed edge to working on the horn; does that mean you are working out near the tip of the horn? The physics would indicate the further towards the tip the less efficiency. 

What is it that you are doing?  I use a swing arm fuller for a lot of stuff and it's "use zone" is closer to the sweet spot than too the hardy hole, an artifact of it's construction that  I have profited from!

When I use a horn I'm usually using the one on my 469# Fisher, up close to the body of the anvil and it's more massive than some of my anvils' sweet spots...

[arftist]

Yes, without doubt you are losing energy using the horn as a fuller, compared to the edge over the waist.

What do you mean, nice edges, the ones you can't use because they are too sharp?

 

What is nice about that?

At least make the thing usable.

[beammeupscotty]

On a London pattern anvil I would be very suspicious at the lack of a step.  I would not be surprised if someone machined it off.  That said,  I understand your hesitance to dress the edges but you should really consider doing it.  I felt the same way when I bought a new TFS anvil but I went ahead and did a conservative job of rounding the edges, then I ended up doing it  4 more times until I finally put large enough radii on it for the edges to be really useful.   The comments suggesting that you do indeed lose energy by working on the bick seem accurate to me, but under normal conditions you would only use the bick when you wanted to very gradually draw something out so the loss of energy should not be a problem.  If however, you are using the bick in lieu of the edges because your edges are too sharp, then you are just slowing yourself down.  Dress the edges.  

Edited November 1, 2018 by Mod34
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[anvil]

the real question is what the heck is a swing arm fuller?  Thomas, that's a new one on me.

[stevomiller]

Aamax yes it’s like beating on a tuning fork,  forging on the horn is less efficient.

Beammeupscotty, there were English anvils without steps, but moreso the Swedes, French, and Germans very often made single horn anvils that were designed like this. The fact that his anvil is a Swedish Soderfors, and he’s in Sweden (so more likely to have nonLondon Pattern anvil) I’m guessing he’s ok, although someone maybe could have milled off what would have been the whole face. 

Anvil, I’m thinking TP is using something similar to a spring fuller, so fuller itself is nowhere near the hardy hole. Swing arm also makes me think there is a pivot joint with axle near the hardy, and not just the body of the spring bent back on itself like a hairpin. I’ve used similar , they can be laterally more stable.

[aaamax]

Thanks for the responses.

Very interesting idea that with having a hardy tool, but that the business end is over the waist, Brilliant. I'm guessing that if one gets the angle of the arm correctly, that the fuller itself would be resting nicely on the face without much movement or vibration whilst giving one the benefit of the "sweet-spot".

Crispy edges I know are frowned upon, but they sure do give one fantastic necking-down abilities. Just something about an over 100 year old anvil still having its edges intact makes me hesitate to radius , almost out of some kind of respect to the previous users. If/when I would start to soften the edge maybe I would just do a short length on one side. Or, just get my old, well used edged anvil to reside next to this one and use it when needed. I suppose one could look at anvils as we do hammers, the right profile for the job... 

Well maybe that is another question for you all with a large grouping of tools. Do you tend to profile all your anvils in similar fashion? 

[aaamax]

On 11/1/2018 at 11:54 AM, beammeupscotty said:

On a London pattern anvil I would be very suspicious at the lack of a step.  I would not be surprised if someone machined it off. 

I agree, it is a bit unusual. I have only seen one other Soderfors without a step. This one I would wager is factory done.

Maybe the Soderfors guy himself Frosty can weigh in on the subject?

Cheers

[billyO]

4 hours ago, aaamax said:

Crispy edges I know are frowned upon, but they sure do give one fantastic necking-down abilities.

You can get just as nice nicks with a very small radius.  Depending on the size of stock you're typically using, I'd round off the edges in a taper from ~m 0.5cm radius at the horn edge down to close to square at the heel, but without any sharp corners.  You can put the almost square portion somewhere between the feet of the anvil for the most stability if needed.  But again, depending on the size of stock you're using a 107kg anvil will be a huge increase in stability over your 85kg. 

If you really need/want a sharp corner for any reason, you can fix that with a square chisel.

 

as always

peace and love

billyO

[ThomasPowers]

I have several swing arm fullers with adjustable throats and different radii; but I tend to use this one the most for my work.

This one is particularly good for students as the spring allows for bad hammer aim without messing up the tool when mistruck. Of course this is the 3rd replacement top rod (made from auto coil spring) and I've stopped counting bolts. (The idea is to hit directly over the piece and so not stress the bolt.  Students tend to listen to me explain that and then use the shotgun approach.)

A common style is below, easy to make and there is a matching drilled upright on the back side to stabilize the swinging part (note difference in hardy stem size, the anvil this goes to doesn't need the help from a longer offset.)

[anvil]

Thomas, Thanks for the explanation and pics. 

As for loss of energy whilst forging on the end of the horn, I do no forging on the end of the horn. I use it to turn scrolls.

[jlpservicesinc]

A fuller in the hardie hole or a spring fuller located over the sweet spot is the best way to go for moving more serious metal..  If it is a 1 off deal for major forging on the tip of the horn there is substantial losses not only in use but also in heat transfer to the horn itself.. 

A horn in it's simplest terms was/is used for turning round and truing up rounded surfaces.. 

It can certainly be used as a fullering device as I have done this 1000's of times but it becomes a matter of knowing and adjusting to get the best bang for the buck vs a down and out rule of never or always.. 

I dislike the Peddinghaus design or north German design as this puts the face corner right at the largest section of the horn  useless unless the metal is thick enough I won't damage the anvil or hammer face if there is a miss strike.. 

With all what is written... I dislike using a bickern in the hardie hole unless there is no other option as there is even less efficiency using this vs the horn.. 

[MotoMike]

Now I know what to call it!

[ThomasPowers]

Well they were talking about going from the rounded edge to the horn and the edge damage would have to be rather severe to make it have the radius of any but the tip of the horn.

Swing Arm Fuller, Spring Fuller, Top and Bottom Fullers, Guillotine Fuller a useful tool can generates many variations in blacksmithing.

[anvil]

22 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Swing Arm Fuller

Thomas, thanks. I'd never heard it called that before.  If I'd  of given it a moment's thought I could have figured it out. Lol, it's about as good of a descriptive name as guillotine. 

[ThomasPowers]

What have they been calling it?  Tool names are often regional and may actually devolve to a single person or shop.

 I have a rawhide mallet used for straightening hot steel know to my students as "the stinky hammer" and the french cross peen is called "frenchy" both terms came from my students and have been propagated from class to class now.

[anvil]

Lol, actually I've never heard of an associated name!  I've seen articles on making and using them, but no name my feeble mind can remember.  perhaps just generically in the extended collection of guillotine type tools.

Actually your name is great. May it rule forever..

Oh, before you get too famous, can I get an autographed custom made and numbered swing arm fuller? 

[ThomasPowers]

I have a swing arm magnifier with built in light. I should be able to do a quarter inch one---but I'm afraid it will get lost in the mail..

I don't think I coined that name either; just what others I was working with called that type.  You may have noticed that the second one is made from heavy angle iron. Gives you a freebie to make the bottom fuller out of and space the standards.