What do we know about Taps and Dies?

[Kozzy]

22 hours ago, Jclonts82 said:

So any recommendations on a good quality brand to look for. 

There are several good brands.  Without posting a link, you need to chase down a proper machinist supply place..like MSC but there are others.  Skip the cheapest offerings. OSG is a good brand, Hertel is also, Cleveland,...but there are lesser known brands that are as good or better.  You get what you pay for but they really aren't that expensive when you account for the potentially wasted time and project from a poor quality tap/die--spending a little more on a good tap/die is clearly a better value.

It's a better value to buy just a couple each of the most common sizes you are likely to use rather than a full set of taps and dies that has many you will use once in a blue moon.  Also get a good quality tapping fluid.  The stuff is often a bit of a stinky oil but makes a HUGE difference. The wax tap sticks work extremely well too but that can be messy/sticky stuff--A container of oil or tapping wax will last the casual user many years.  Taps don't last forever and there is no value in pushing them "one more hole" after they are feeling a bit worn out: Accept that it's done it's job and move on to a new one (they can theoretically be re-sharpened but the value of that is usually questionable these days).  Pushing one more hole from a worn tap is asking for it to snap on you.

Over time you can fill out a "home-made" set with the weirder sizes as you need them.  It might mean a project sits for 2 days waiting for delivery but patience pays off unless the project is screaming at you to get done NOW.  5 or 6 sizes of taps and dies will cover 98% of what most people actually ever use.

And a really nice Christmas gift to give yourself is good tap/die handles.  They are soooooo much more comfortable to use than the cheap ones, and will last long enough that your grandkids will be using them.   I *really* dislike the T handle tap wrenches (with the chuck-like holder) and prefer the straight handled style myself...but others may differ there.

[anvil]

13 hours ago, Kozzy said:

And a really nice Christmas gift to give yourself is good tap/die handles. 

That is the best advice yet. With a good set of tap wrenches, your control increases exponentially. This translates to far fewer broken taps that can be a real pain in the butt to remove.

This also means you can use less quality taps without their breaking.

[Steamboat]

19 hours ago, Kozzy said:

And a really nice Christmas gift to give yourself is good tap/die handles.

I totally agree that good tap wrenches and die stocks (die holders) are important. If space around the rod to be threaded is adequate, I prefer straight-handle tap wrenches over T-handles. And remember that you can get die stocks that have adjustable guides, which can really help a lot to start and maintain your threads in proper alignment with the rod being threaded.

Al (Steamboat)

[VaughnT]

On 12/6/2018 at 7:24 PM, Jclonts82 said:

So any recommendations on on a good quality brand to look for. I tried researching reviews and whatnot, seems like just a bunch of lay persons saying yeah it worked once, or it did great in aluminum or plastic... 

went to Ace and got a single Irwin brand tap and it barely made it through. Pipe tap turned into a spiral tap by the time I was done... all BEFORE I had hardened the steel, I suppose I should have fully annealed it, but was just lazy I guess.

Layered steel will always be a bear to cut with a tap.  It's kinda like using a handsaw to cut through plywood -- you can do it, but it's not the easiest thing to do and the large teeth make for a ragged cut and a lot of binding.

Greenfield Tap and Die is one of the best brands. Here's a wonderful video on their taps and how you can best use them.... Super-fun to watch!

Toolmex, out of Poland, is getting good reviews everywhere I see them mentioned.

Guhring/Powertap, from Germany, isn't too shabby and has that German quality that you'd expect.

Personally, I love searching for vintage/antique sets in the old wood boxes.  Even if the taps are shot, rusted to bits and dull as a fritter, the die stock and tap wrench more than make up for it.  If you can get a set with the nice color case hardening still intact.... you're a winner in life.  

Just look at this beautiful set.  A light bit of wire brushing to remove the rust from the tap wrench handles and you'd have a real beauty on your hands!  The taps and dies are meant to be replaced as they wear, but those handles are works of art that can't be bought new anymore.

Or something like this where each die gets its own handle!

Yea, it's an addiction!  Even if I never use the blasted things, I'd rather they be in my shop than on the wall of some boutique hairdresser's place as part of a hipster-chic industrial design thing.

 

[anvil]

the oldies are great, and fine toolsd as well.  

another quality maker is Snap-on.  the sets are often a good ebay deal.

[jlpservicesinc]

Vaughn, nice find on those tapered taps really neat..   Way back before their was a standard for thread sizes and pitches you would never know what would come in.. 
What are there sizes llsted in TPI to hole sizes? 

 

In 42 years I have acquired 100's of taps and dies as well as a handful of  handles and die stocks..  

Todays hand tools leave a lot to be desired as quality vs mass production or chinesesium has came into play.. 

There is a very large difference between carbon steel, HSS and Cobalt taps and dies..   With this said.. I personally stay away from Titainum coated taps and dies for general hand use..  Unless you are buying a top of the line coated tool, the under base materials are usually softer to account for the harder outer layering so once the coating is eaten through the item is junk and can not be resharpened..    In some cases a coated tool will be the only answer like when threading stainless, but today there are better coatings with higher lubricity and again. Price point playing into a tool.. 

I carry taps and dies up to 1.25 for standard bolts and up to 3" for pipe.   Have adjustable dies as well as stock dies or non adjustable dies..      Adjustable dies allow for sharpening of the dies and was one of the original reasoning to maintain thread tolerances with split dies /adjustable...  This became a great asset as now you can adjust for thread tolerences with tigher or looser fits but a go- no go gauge if working to this standard is import today with mass production..    I will still make custom screws for gun locks and such which are non standard pitch and thread count.. 

One thing that has failed to mentioned is thread depth..   nearly all modern fasteners run about 75% thread depth...  this can be lessened or made greater dependent on holding capacity.. With this said the 75% depth offers the best range of hold with ease in forming or cutting of the threads which lessens tap and or die teeth breakage..

Today there are also cutterless threading taps or forming taps.. these displace metal and form some of the stongest theads and are also used on hard to cut thread materials like monel and stainless an other nickel alloys as well as hardened steels.. 

As to tapping sets..   One has to recognize not all tapping sets are created equally..  I own a vintage Craftsman set of Carbon steel that is 42 years old I still have the complete set with the original taps and dies though this set is basically in retirement.. Way back then Craftsman was offering a CS and a HSS set but I could never afford the HSS set..   Mild steels made back then was good so when I messed up and used the carbon steel taps on something a little to hard the tap would get thrown and a new one would take its place.. 

As I matured I started looking around and bought "the thought of dreaded  product of HF in their HSS  steel set.. Before you say Oh, fudge bucket.. These taps and dies have worked very well for many years..  These are for sure slightly harder than the Craftsman CS taps and dies..  Though still not on par with quality USA HSS taps and dies..  I have this set in both Metric and Standard and are no longer produced.. The nice thing was on these that if one failed I could call HF and they would send out a new one for a few dollars.. 

Both sets still work very well and get used weekly..  

Now after looking around and owning some very nice Starrett handles as well as a few others , I really wanted a ratcheting handle..    I latched onto Gearwrench and they came out with their Ratcheting die stock/ handle kits.. 

These are the bomb for tapping as you can always maintain a proper position in relation to the turn or throw of the tap or die..    Most taps break because of moving the tap off axis that is not straight and then pressure applied against the side of the tap as it is turned..  

The taps and dies are carbon steel..    and here is the rub..   These are softer than the old Craftsmans carbon steel  taps and dies so wear out more quickly..  I throw them away and purchase HSS taps and dies from a company in the USA. " Kodiak Cutting tools" and can order direct.. These work well.. 

So back to the gearwrench kits  or any kit for that matter..  Unless you have really big dollars and can afford a HSS kit or a Cobalt kit (dreaming)..  The gearwrench kits are great as long as one understand  todays steels are crap.. They will have inclusions and hard spots that will render a Carbon steel tap of mid to lower end quality useless.. When this happens just replace it with a HSS tap and die as most dies now are standard sizes..   The T handle and die wrenches in the kit are excellent up to about 5/8"  for production,  1" for 1 or 2, then you need more leverage if you don't want to beat yourself and you wrists  up to badly.. I just add pipe to the gear wrench handles to get the extra leverage..   

Old taps and dies or buying used ones can be a hit or miss as many are abused and will offer sub par performance and cut no better than a worn out one.   I'm not saying to not buy them.. I buy them when I find a good deal and see that the cutting edges are perfect..  A worn, dull tap or die is just asking for trouble both in extra work/effort and in bad threads as well as scrapped parts from the taps breaking in the hole..    

I own gun taps, spiral bottom taps, pipe taps, BBS, BBSG,  Super fine NPT,  and few nut job ones.. 3/4X48 tpi as an example.. 

Anyhow there are modern suppliers such as MSC,  Travers, Fastnel, Grainger,  wholesale tool,  McMaster-Carr, Kodiak  really the list is endless..   Most places have sales and this is the time to stock up.   

One of the best investments is a full tapered starting tap..  these are harder to find as now they are replaced only as taper taps..  This longer taper tap allows for accurate centering of both angle to the hole/face and the tap, so it will run true to the hole..  Hand tapping is a skill set all it's own.   The full taper taps will help in many, many ways.. 

 

[jlpservicesinc]

here is a vintage ratcheting handle that was originally used for an auger bit..  It works great for taping and is all ready setup to hold square shanks.. 

Here is how big the Gear wrench set is.. 

[Steamboat]

Jennifer, that is a lot of good advice. I totally agree that there are manufacturers who will apply titanium nitride and similar coatings on just about any kind of steel, whether it's taps, dies, drills, cutting tools, etc., since the coating creates the "impression" for marketing purposes that the tools are high quality, whether they really are or not. That said, if you're going to be working with "sticky" or "gummy" metals, such as stainless steel, etc., the coating can be very helpful, but one should always make sure that the substrate is a quality alloy (HSS or better for taps and dies).

I've bought a lot of very nice used taps and dies over the years in virtually new condition, but I rarely buy used drill bits unless I know the seller and I'm sure of what I'm buying. As I mentioned earlier, I inspect used taps and dies carefully with a high-power loupe to check for wear and damage, as well as to have a closer look at the finish/machining quality, and I buy them cheaply enough that if I get a lemon once in a while, I just toss it, and I'm typically only out a buck or two.

Like you, I have a lot of odd sizes of taps and dies, since several of my past restoration projects have involved antiquated fastener types and sizes that are no longer in vogue.

On a somewhat related topic, regarding drill bits (for drilling metals, rather than masonry, etc.), I seldom buy anything other than brand-new cobalt-steel bits (usually with a titanium nitride or titanium aluminum nitride coating), with some exceptions, such as solid tungsten carbide end mills, bits, and other cutting tools for my mill or lathe, although solid carbide tools can be very fussy about how they are used, since it's easy to break or chip them if the work is not secured properly or if the feed and other factors are not set up correctly. I hardly ever bother with standard HSS steel drill bits any more. Cobalt drill bits are still subject to wear, of course, and occasionally need to be re-sharpened, but I don't have to re-sharpen cobalt bits as often as ordinary HSS bits, since they maintain their edge quality longer when drilling harder metals.

Al (Steamboat)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I prefer the spiral point taps because you don't have to back them up to break a chip, and they can be power fed in the mill or lathe. I got a big selection of high quality taps off Ebay  from a guy selling the used ones from Boeing. They use a tap 6 times before replacing it. Boeing surplus sales is a huge warehouse, and a friend used to take a trailer up with him when he went there.

[Steamboat]

2 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

I prefer the spiral point taps...

I have a selection of spiral-point and spiral-flute carbide and HSS taps that I use with my Bridgeport mill, and occasionally with my lathe. I, too, like the chip control they offer, and the spiral-flute taps are nice for ejecting chips when tapping blind holes.

Al (Steamboat)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

One issue I have with spiral flute is when you break one. A lot tougher to remove. I do blind holes with spiral points as long as there is room at the bottom for the chips. At my last job a broken tap in the lathe or mill was not a horrible thing as we had solid carbide spotting drills we made in house. I would get a used one and just drill out the tap. They cut like butter under sharp carbide.

[Casapa]

Havent seen this set since I was an apprentice. Luckily my Dad likes to keep his old tools. Will come in handy for my burners, its a 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 bsp pipe set.