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Steel and concrete anvil stand


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I think what has caused a lot of confusion regarding this project is the idea that concrete is somehow unsuitable as a material used in the construction of an anvil base. Perhaps it would be all by itself, or even with a little steel reinforcement.

I believe this stems from the general understanding of steel reinforced concrete, where concrete is the primary load bearing material. This stand is made of concrete reinforced steel, which is a different animal. A common bollard is a good example of this; a steel pipe filled with concrete. The steel pipe is the main structural component with the concrete adding mass and stiffness.

Which brings me to another thought I had. I see guys adding sand to the inside of the tripod legs they are putting together. Why not use concrete or even mortar instead? It will certainly stop any ringing and will also add stiffness to the leg. You could have bollard legs!

I think the main advantage a stand of this design brings is to the guys with smaller anvils. It took more effort for me to draw out a taper on my former wooden stand than it does with this stand. I built a standard wall hook out of 1/2" stock today, and I took fewer heats than I normally take to get the taper finished. It wasn't a huge difference, but it was noticeable. 

Anyway, I'll let you know if it fails and falls apart, but don't hold your breath. 

Cheers,

Ted

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Without indulging in the odd concept of "concrete reinforced steel" ... 

Considering that a bucket full with sand makes for a good anvil stand, of course concrete with or without steel, of whatever size, will also work.

Why?

Because the stand adds nothing to the anvil function. If you were to make a concrete anvil, well ... then we had something to talk about.

A stand is for the anvil to ... stand on. :)

One could have an anvil on one's belly, lay with the head on a chair and the feet on the other and make for a reasonably good stand. not very comfy yes, but sort of workable if it wasn't for the hot scale of course.   

The way this stands ... pun intended ... a stand made of concrete, steel, wood, rubber ... or air, makes almost no difference. it is the anvil that takes the blows providing it is of the correct size for the job at hand.

Which brings me to the sand filled anvil stand legs. The reason to fill the stand legs with sand (and oil) is not to reinforce the legs, since such would be completely unnecessary, but it is to silence the hollow pipes that would otherwise ring unnecessarily. 

The oil is to stop the pipe from rusting and also helps in filling the pipe completely since the mix takes the consistency of a paste. Would concrete work instead of sand and oil? May be, maybe not. Sand and oil is way easier. 

Now ... is there any blacksmith living in Paris that would like to bolt an anvil on top of the Eiffel Tower and check if the rebound has improved :P

(We have already established that the whirlpool effect in the toilet bowl in the northern hemisphere compared to the southern hemisphere is a furphy. )

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You know. I just don't understand the skeptics and armchair theorycrafters that crop up every single time stands are discussed. 

Anvils aren't special. If you put them on an air cushion as a stand, there's no way you'll get the same amount of work done as affixed solidly to a stump. 

If concrete is just going to self destruct under anvil use, everyone working on a concrete floor better look out!

3 hours ago, Marc1 said:

One could have an anvil on one's belly, lay with the head on a chair and the feet on the other and make for a reasonably good stand. not very comfy yes, but sort of workable if it wasn't for the hot scale of course.   

:rolleyes:

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If you have a 500 lb anvil the stand becomes far less relevant to its performance. For my little 70 pounder, the stand made a big difference.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and arguing opinion is pointless. I'd rather discuss merits and drawbacks of design and function. 

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Ted,

i like your stand design and your execution. Of course all of us have things we might find we’d do different, but that’s the nature of building things to suit our individual ideas or needs.

An anvil in intimate contact and secured to a rigid heavy mass will work more efficiently, especially if the anvil itself is a smaller one.

If this wasn’t the case, then removable dies in a power hammer are the anvil, and the mass of machine below it is meaningless. We all know that isn’t the case. True industrial power hammers have very large anvils, both to be more efficient and to protect the rest of the machine and the foundation

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On 10/20/2018 at 9:00 AM, Exo313 said:

You know. I just don't understand the skeptics and armchair theorycrafters that crop up every single time stands are discussed. Anvils aren't special. If you put them on an air cushion as a stand, there's no way you'll get the same amount of work done as affixed solidly to a stump. If concrete is just going to self destruct under anvil use, everyone working on a concrete floor better look out!

Ha ha, yes, physics is an obscure dark art to some.

Eppur si muove. 

No, the stand will not self destruct. If you read my post again and again, you may perhaps grasp its meaning. The stand in question is in fact overengineered and will most likely outlive it's purpose. 

As for the behaviour of small and big anvils on different stands, I say to you that when I would love to debate some of the different laws and concepts that occur in this systems, perhaps debating with someone who sees skepticism as a negative, is not a good idea. 

Since skepticism is at the very essence of science and in fact a requirement.

There are other areas where humans entertain the absence of skepticism as very desirable.

Not my cup of tea.

Best luck next time.  

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Looks like this stand was well thought out and equally well executed. Any idea what the total weight of anvil and stand is? How hard it will be to move should the need arise? A hard to move anvil stand is a plus in my book. My only gripe, which is personal preference, is I couldn’t operate with the tray under the horn or the tools under the heel. I’ve got that issue with one of my own anvil stands. It’s nice to have a place for tools but certianly restricts full use of the anvil. 

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Hey Marc,

I think I lumped your post unintentionally into a category with others. 

Some skepticism is healthy. If it's informed. Yours is, although I find the extreme example of belly stands a bit much to wrap my head around. But I'm, admittedly, no physicist. 

There was early handwringing about cracking, and ye olde: 'stumps have been in use forever, why change' before you posted. I was reacting more to that, and I think I jumped in too fast when you added your analogy. 

Apologies. If anything, some of the previous posts felt like, "The sun has revolved around the earth since our forefathers, the earth shall not be moved"

....aaand, back to the topic at hand:

I like this stand. I'd hate to move it. Given the tools I have at my disposal, if I had a semi-permanent location to place my anvil, this is probably the way I'd go.

An interesting note: Popular Mechanics May 1905 references a cast iron box filled nearly to the top with concrete, to include 2 bolts embedded in the concrete. Nuts are added to bolts, then molten lead poured just up to the bottom of the nuts. This, apparently, resulted in a (at that time) cheap, virtually silent mount,  suitable for schools and the like. 

 

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The stand wouldn't be too hard to move. I oiled the slab below it before pouring, so it can't be stuck too bad. The weight is somewhere north of 200 lbs. 

I love the old  popular mechanics stand idea! The lead is a bit much, but you could do the same thing with a big piece of pipe. A flange on the top and bottom, fill it with concrete and you're done. 

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On 10/21/2018 at 9:34 AM, Exo313 said:

Some skepticism is healthy. If it's informed. Yours is, although I find the extreme example of belly stands a bit much to wrap my head around. But I'm, admittedly, no physicist. 

Not to mention it is hard to work the hammer over the anvil laying under it :P

The reason I tend to get engrossed in the topic anvil+stand, is that most ... or at least some ... people think that a bigger stand will add mass to the anvil. It is intuitive to think so and you must excuse those who think so.

The scientific explanation can be rather long and dry, and from previous attempts and judging from the inquisition replies i received, I rather let that one go. 

i will however attempt a thought for the thoughtful.

If the addition of Mass one (anvil) + Mass two (stand),  in the case of a collision system like hammer and anvil+stand, is so easy to achieve, just by bolting the anvil down ... why is it that when someone talks about repairing an anvil we make such a fuss about the faceplate and how it should be attached to the anvil? 

if bolting down an anvil makes the mass of the stand be added to the mass of the anvil, why can't we just make a faceplate with 4 lumps, one at each corner with a 20mm hole in each corner, weld 4 nuts on the side of the anvil and strap the face down nice and tight with 3/4" bolts and Bob is your father's brother? 

No one would think that such is a good idea, however if it is not, then the anvil anchored to the stand, is only good for stability purposes and not for mass adding. 

A 200 lb anvil on a 100 lb stand or on a 2,000 lb stand will perform almost the same unfortunately. if you then add some caulking compound between them ... well, then it will be like having the anvil on your belly ... or rather your striker's belly. Not very different anyway. :)

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I have thought about this quite a bit. It's not so much about adding mass, but more about adding stiffness. All materials have a certain amount of spring to them, including anvils and stands. When the anvil is struck with a hammer, the force is transferred into the anvil, then into the stand, then into whatever the stand is placed upon. During that process there is a certain amount of spring in each of the components. 

The spring represents lost energy. This is energy which has gone into the deformation of anything besides the work. The effectiveness of the hammer blow has been reduced by the percentage of energy lost in the spring. 

Bouncing, rattling, moving or ringing all represent lost energy. In order to reduce or eliminate these effects requires that all components to be tightly connected together, and the spring eliminated wherever possible. Bolting the anvil to the base greatly reduces the spring between the two. Bolting the base to the floor does the same. You can't really change the anvil's stiffness, but you can make a very stiff base.

Wood seems very stiff, especially along the vertical grain. Nevertheless, it has more spring than vertical steel or concrete. 

Where mass comes in is in the area of inertia. A 500 lb anvil has much greater inertia than a 100 lb anvil. This inertia can greatly mitigate any spring in the stand, to the point where it is unnoticeable. 

Stiffness can make up for the lack of inertia in smaller anvils. Having a stiff stand, with everything bolted together, provides similar resistance in the vertical plane as a much larger anvil would.

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Yes, Ted, a fascinating subject but said fascination seems to be a rare occurrence. Only for the outlandish and the idiosyncratic ... or so I am told  :P

Simple answer is that when talking anvils, bigger is better. 

Oh my ... did I say that? :wub:

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Depending on how they will be used.  I've noticed as I age that my 165# anvils are no longer considered to be "travel anvils" to schlep to demos and classes. (I top out with the 134# HB now and find the 91# A&H and 112# PW to be quite sufficient....The Y1K 25# anvil gets quite a bit of use too.)

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I've got: Travel Anvils, Shop Anvils the young guys move---in pairs and "Rooted in Place" (anvils over 400 pounds---when they have to move I do it by myself; but use levers, rollers, inclined planes, come-alongs, block and tackle, etc. Much safer to not have spectators around so I can concentrate on *ME* being safe!

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On 10/12/2018 at 9:20 PM, Ted Ewert said:

. The concrete slab under the stand is not level which has caused a few headaches.

I've  been watching this thread for a while. just wanted to see where it was going before I added my two cents.

The quote above is one of the keys. I base this on the only physics that matters. That's vibration. And whenever force(or whatever) passes thru different mediums, you become less efficient. Movement of any kind as well.

And for all the concrete theories, there is a very important deal you missed. It's called non shrink grout. This is required in many places by yer trusty structural engineer. what does it do? Well it doesn't shrink, because basically all concrete shrinks as it cures. So, you never have a surface to surface joint, ya gots small gaps where vibration will do its job.

So, back to your quote.  I wonder what kind of gaps you have on your non level slab? There's a good bet that if you put a straight edge between the bolt holes, you would see daylight here and there. That causes vibration and wear on yer 'crete. Same situation at the top plate/'Crete interface if you didn't grout it.

But what's the weakest point, or points. It's your connections to the ground. 4 small bolts. They look like half or so. Perhaps even 3/8". I imagine you used anchors of some type. Red heads or some such.

These 4 points will wear the fastest due to hammering, vibration, and any other movement.

Now, let's look at other things we commonly do with our anvils. turning over the horn creats lateral movement as does using bending forks in the hardy hole, or a small cone mandrel. Not to mention forging over the off side and using the side as your forging face. 

This will give your 4 bolts a real workout laterally.

So the final and most important point is just how much does this matter?Depends on how much you work on it.  A full time Smith putting in say 4-6 hours 5 days a week on your anvil is one situation.

a weekend warrior who might get a few hours on a Saturday afternoon is another. 

And for those that believe traditional ideas are an anachronism to be laughed at instead of learned from, should consider that I have never seen any "factory" recommended mounting system for power hammers that makes it pretty clear that a hammer to crete connection is to be avoided. Now that's from a 25# lil giant on up. I suspect that the only difference between a 25# hammer and a 124# anvil and a 2.5# hand hammer mounted directly to crete is only bt a matter of degree. And the time to have yer attachment points wallow out depends on time in use. 

So as a traditional Smith I would not consider a concrete stand. Lol, I would never consider a concrete floor, so it's rather redundant! :) ;)

And as already been mentioned, I'd move all those tools away from my anvil and keep it all open in order to work how needed around the whole anvil.

But good luck! Hope it fits your needs.

 

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Thanks for your thoughts. I'm aware that concrete shrinks. However, I see no gaps or shrinkage away from the steel structure. There is absolutely no gap between the stand and the slab.

As far as the anchors are concerned, I may have to tighten the bolts from time to time, but they're not coming out of the concrete. The slab will fail before the anchors will. In the unlikely event that happens, I'll go to epoxy.

I've been using my anvil every day for 2 to 3 hours and I really like the stand. The tools don't get in my way at all and are very handy where they are. 

Like anything else, it's not perfect. Nevertheless, it is a viable option for those who have a smaller anvil and need a more rigid stand. 

BTW, I'm not much of a traditionalist. I use whatever works best for me. If someone else wants to try it, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. To each his own. 

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17 hours ago, anvil said:

I have never seen any "factory" recommended mounting system for power hammers

Sure Anvil, but you can not compare a hand hammer/ anvil +stump  vs power hammer / anvil + base. 

The amount of force that escapes the first system's anvil and goes in this concrete stump, is negligible when compared to the force that escapes the power hammer anvil that is by comparison way smaller not to mention the number of blows per unit of time  is hundreds of times higher. 

Power hammers just like any other large machine that produces vibrations, needs either an interface that is soft between its own base and the floor or needs to be anchored to a block of concrete that is itself on a soft base like cork, rubber or similar. 

They are not comparable systems. 

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