Steel and concrete anvil stand

[Frosty]

17 hours ago, JHCC said:

Mortared stones and cast concrete are two very different things. 

Cast concrete Is mortared stone, at about the same ratio by weight even. Common modern concrete being a gradation of aggregate cemented together by a Portland cement. A mortared stone wall is a stack of stones cemented together by typically mortar based on Portland cement. By "Portland cement" I mean, "slaked lime and ash. Volcanic ash being preferred but modern plants make their own.

Rather than mount your anvil on granite, use the granite instead. Now we're talking traditional!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marc1]

Or you could use terra romana. Gets harder and harder with time.

[MC Hammer]

On 10/29/2018 at 5:48 PM, Frosty said:

Rather than mount your anvil on granite, use the granite instead. Now we're talking traditional!

I like your thinking Frosty !

[Ted Ewert]

I'll bet stone would conduct a lot less heat than steel. How about an anvil made of really tough and hard ceramic material. Don't know if the material even  exists, but it would suck much less heat out of the work. Maybe just a layer over the top of a steel anvil. Some tough hard insulator. Just thinkin...

[ThomasPowers]

Perhaps one of the titanium alloys? Their heat conduction is lower than plain steel/wrought iron.

[MC Hammer]

Ted I hadn't thought about the heat conducting aspects of a stone anvil.  That's a good point.  I work a lot of hard stone into axes, celts, and gouges to sell along with my flint points and things so I have the equipment to work hard stone.  If I get the opportunity to get a large enough piece I may just experiment with it.  

[JHCC]

Check out the use of traditional stone anvils and sledges in this video:

 

16 hours ago, Frosty said:

Cast concrete Is mortared stone, at about the same ratio by weight even.

True, but in cast concrete, the total surface area of the aggregate is much, much higher than the total surface area of the stones in a masonry construction, which means that the shear stresses in a concrete wall are more evenly distributed throughout. In masonry, if the shear strength of the mortar-to-stone bond and the cement's resistance to splitting is less than the strength of the stones themselves, any force applied will be concentrated into those joints, which would therefore be much more likely to break.

[anvil]

On 10/29/2018 at 3:44 PM, Marc1 said:

The money may or may not follow. Most of the time it does not.

and there is the key. 

"most of the time it does not".

You are correct. But the reason is "smith" specific. I'll never critique anyone for their reasons to choose to not. They are all correct. However, I'm far more interested in those, and their work, who choose to do.

Another present day truth is that there are far more working successful traditional architectural Smith's today than when I started full time back In  the '80's.

Your statement  applies to all crafts and creative endeavors. Think of musicians, concert pianists, anything.  And yet there are many who do not fail.

Bill Gates said "think outside the box". The implied meaning here is that it's far safer to remain in the box.

Basically you have given the most common reason for not pursuing our craft, or anything for that matter as a full time business.

"most of the time it does not".

 

[Marc1]

On 10/29/2018 at 5:44 PM, Marc1 said:

I see ... intensive value adding vs extensive. I am usually slow in getting jokes, english being my 5th language, but I can see it now.

Banter aside, business models determine work practices, if you want to make money.

Work practices determine business models if you want to send a message to your customers or teach. The money may or may not follow. Most of the time it does not.

Reminds me of a chef I knew who was a remarkably good one and decided to open his own restaurant ... as you do ... yet had no idea of running a restaurant, only how to cook to perfection. When people started to drop out, he told me they were ignorants and that he wanted to "educate" his patrons with the dishes. Goes without saying he closed the doors soon after. Probably still thinks it is the fault of his customers ... I can't believe they did not like my cervelle de veau ... peasants!   

 

4 hours ago, anvil said:

"most of the time it does not".

Mm ... Mr Anvil, you are quoting me out of context.

Quote

business models determine work practices, if you want to make money.

Work practices determine business models if you want to send a message to your customers or teach. The money may or may not follow. Most of the time it does not.

The above quote is the one that matters to anyone who wants to get in business. You can be a master and a traditionalist in many arts, but if you do not read the market and are not prepared to adapt to what the market wants, you will still be an artist and a purist but clearly not a businessman. A modern day blacksmith operation that refuses to do electric welds, may subsist in a niche market with a lot of luck, but will struggle to produce the volume required to be in business.

Like the chef of my example, one must balance what one really wants. To be in business and make a living or to be an uncompromising purist and suffer because the customers are ignorants and don't understand? I am 100% positive that if we time traveled a blacksmith from the 1800 to today, he would jump at the opportunity to use an electric welder and an angle grinder in a flash. Our idealisation of "traditional" methods is an abstract reality that does not exist and is completely subjective.

The above video is the perfect example. Look in awe the stone anvil and the crouching in the dirt worker in a subsistence economy as if it was the "real" way to forge, and we are all cheaters.  

[Marc1]

A bit like a musician who insist in playing a clavichord and refuses to play the piano with it's cheating universal tuning ... 

Ok ok, let it go

[ThomasPowers]

Or have his journeymen and apprentices use the welder and grinders...Smithing was not a "single individual" craft historically! (No matter how much Hollywood and fantasy writers portray it as such...)

[JHCC]

11 hours ago, Marc1 said:

Our idealisation of "traditional" methods is an abstract reality that does not exist and is completely subjective.

The above video is the perfect example. Look in awe the stone anvil and the crouching in the dirt worker in a subsistence economy as if it was the "real" way to forge, and we are all cheaters.  

The point is not that this particular variety of traditional blacksmithing is "the 'real' way to forge etc", but that stone anvils and tools are a lot more practical and/or sophisticated than some might think -- especially those whose mental image of smithing is dominated by stereotypes of European "traditional" smithing. 

One of our tasks as contemporary smiths is to develop the mental discipline to look at all kinds of smithing objectively and without prejudice -- whether from the most "primitive" or "tribal" to the most technologically "advanced" -- remembering that we all have lessons to be learned about creativity, artistry, aesthetics, workflow management, making the best use of available resources, collaboration with coworkers, etc, etc, etc. Artificial and unrealistic idealizations and pre-judging -- both positive and negative -- of any kind of smithing are the enemy of objectivity and open-mindedness and thus the enemy of learning.

[Marc1]

 

On 10/31/2018 at 1:44 PM, JHCC said:

The point is not that this particular variety of traditional blacksmithing is "the 'real' way to forge etc", but that stone anvils and tools are a lot more practical and/or sophisticated than some might think -- especially those whose mental image of smithing is dominated by stereotypes of European "traditional" smithing. 

I agree in principle with the above ... However,  I believe that the concrete stump, being unconventional and intuitively "wrong", created a lot of replies, with the main idea that a wooden stump is "better" because that is what was done in days gone by.

Sure a log plunked in the ground is easier, yet a concrete stump is safe from termites and if done properly will work for 10 generations of smiths. 

Is the stone anvil better? Of course not. Is electric welding wrong? Who decides?

My point was simply that if someone wants to make a living from blacksmithing today, it is hard enough as it is with all the imported stuff, don't add another burden to your business model by placing bias and prejudice on your working methods. Make the best of your experience and help yourself with everything you have at hand, including press, power hammer, tic, mig, power tools, air tools, you name it, they are all good help.

Who decides? Easy, your customer decides. The rest is for demonstrations, museums and may be to build a curriculum for a class. 

But that is just my point of view, that is in no way "better" than your point of view.

[anvil]

Marc1, I do appreciate your sarcasm and get great pleasure out of it. Trust this, there have been many times in my life that if I wasn't the focus of my own  cheap entertainment, I would have had nothing to laugh at.

Nor do I care how you perceive me. What I do know is no one will ever preceive me as a  nopie. You know, "nope, you cant _____"

So there lies the difference. My purpose is to pass on my experiences, encourage with pics of my work and stress that you can. 

 I cant argue with your business model. I don't accept your conclusions. Simply stated, Its production vs commission. And pounds per hour vs hours per pound is the same thing. And you believe production Trumps  commission. Thus production is for those who want to make money, and  comission work is for flakes who live in la la la land. Am I correct? Well I'm here to tell you it's a beautiful view from up here In  la la la land. And there is plenty of work for all.

But here's the irony of this monologue between the two of us. JHCC posted a great video of stone hammers and stone anvils in use. His intent was to inform. When you mentioned it, its purpose was a bit of sarcasm.  No problem.

 But here is the irony. The man who narrated the video is Tom Joyce.  He is without a doubt one of the most highly thought of traditional architectural blacksmith of our era. World renown, to say the least. And I'm privileged to call him friend, I've worked both with him and worked for him. I've attended his demonstrations and even spent  the night at his house and had some memoriable midnight forging sessions. 

And you use this man's video as a sarcastic dig on we who work by comission.  Well done, good sir

Thomas, you are correct about shops of the past, but you must be aware that since the reemergence of our craft in the mid '70's, predominately working shops are one man operations, no matter the tooling used. 

As for idealism. Let me use fantasy as idealism. synonyms. 

The first time that fantasy and reality  clash, and that can be any time from the first horse, first time striking hot iron, or sometime in the future, something happens.

One may just up and quit. One may, for whatever personal reasons, begin to add  contemporary tools to your process.  A grinder, a welder, a torch, a scroll jig or whatever, or a passion for these basic primordal tools begins to emerge. I remember vividly that very moment and that passion has continued to grow to this very day. I'm 72 and it is an adventure of a lifetime,,, and the next chapter began three weeks ago. Next week my temporary shop, 18'×20',  goes up on my new paid for 20 acres

So, preach your "nopieism and enjoy your business conclusions because what it truly boils down to is "if it's good enough for you", that's all that matters.  

 

 

[Ted Ewert]

Some very interesting ideas about business models vs practices. This will always be just a hobby for me. I get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction in giving away the stuff I make. To me that's payment enough.

It also allows me the luxury to make what I want, when I want. I get enough stress and pressure at work. A couple of hours at the anvil is the best therapy I've found. 

Anyway, I'm getting a bigger anvil, somewhere in the 250 lb range. Not that the Vulcan, with no square edges, isn't adequate for my skill level, but I would like a larger flat work surface, a 1" hardie and a bigger Pritchel hole. 

This will require modifying the existing stand to accommodate the larger base. Consequently, the saga will continue. 

[Marc1]

On 10/31/2018 at 7:32 PM, anvil said:

Marc1, I do appreciate your sarcasm and get great pleasure out of it

Ok ... good to hear, but somehow it does not seem like you appreciate a joke. No sarcasm used in my post.

On 10/31/2018 at 7:32 PM, anvil said:

Simply stated, Its production vs commission. And pounds per hour vs hours per pound is the same thing. And you believe production Trumps  commission. Thus production is for those who want to make money, and  comission work is for flakes who live in la la la land. Am I correct?

Nope. It is use all you have to produce what you want rather than limit yourself to what a blacksmith would have done 150 years ago. It is focus on outcome rather than method. No one talked about commission or production. 

On 10/31/2018 at 7:32 PM, anvil said:

And you use this man's video as a sarcastic dig on we who work by comission.  Well done, good sir

My friend, how did you reach such far fetched conclusion is beyond me. To do a custom job or a production job is not in the picture only in your interpretation. I am talking about methods to stay in business. Tools to use rather than not to use. I am acutely aware of the limitations self imposed by some that think they must refrain from modern tools to stay within the traditional methods. i say that is balloony and if you want to use a plasma cutter, a cold saw, a press, a pneumatic tool, a computer cutting table, you should do so if the outcome is what you intend. And I use jokes and stories to illustrate my point of view, and I qualify my opinions saying they are ONLY my opinion, meaning I am just talking about what i believe to be a good idea, and that others can disagree in spades, and I will not mind one bit. After all no one is telling me how to do my work.

You are talking about ... not sure really. I hope you are not upset. 

[Ted Ewert]

Can you guys please take your conversation private? I miss having people telling me that concrete won't work. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Oh concrete will work, the question is for how long.

[Ted Ewert]

That's better, thanks. 

[Frosty]

On 10/29/2018 at 1:51 PM, Marc1 said:

Or you could use terra romana. Gets harder and harder with time.

All concrete gets harder with time, even in the desert. So far I don't believe there is concrete that has stopped getting stronger and it predates ancient Greece. I don't know if Minoan culture used concrete but it's possible.

Heck the Romans weren't even the first to include ash, they just made the most widespread use. The Colosseum is a stone faced concrete structure, not entirely but mostly.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I wish I would have taken a picture of a concrete anvil stand that was in an old shop. It was basically still usable but the edges were all broken down. It looked like some heavy striking had been done with some misses hitting the stand. (didn't see any rebar though).

[Marc1]

2 hours ago, Ted Ewert said:

Can you guys please take your conversation private? I miss having people telling me that concrete won't work. 

Your concrete stand sucks, will crack and the anvil fall on your big toe ... the left one.

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

All concrete gets harder with time, even in the desert. So far I don't believe there is concrete that has stopped getting stronger and it predates ancient Greece. I don't know if Minoan culture used concrete but it's possible.

Heck the Romans weren't even the first to include ash, they just made the most widespread use. The Colosseum is a stone faced concrete structure, not entirely but mostly.

Frosty The Lucky.

True. from the little I know, Pozzolana has the unusual characteristic of increasing strength under water. Not sure if Portland cement does the same. 

The chinese on the other hand used rice flower in their mortar for the great wall. Go figure. 

 

[anvil]

thanks guys, now I finally understand what proper tools, proper SETUP, proper job actually means! 

and everybody knows ya cant use concrete in Australia because it slumps up, not down.

I'm goiig back to my cave.  

[JHCC]

Young lad complains about book on Australia selected for bedtime reading:

“What did you bring that book I didn’t want to be read to out of about Down Under up for?”

[ThomasPowers]

I preferred the Pantheon for a very "modern" "ancient" cast concrete structure---especially the coffered ceiling.

Pity that that nice fellow is using a concrete anvil stand---sure tempting the fates to have him move monthly for the next couple of years...