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T rex style build


671jungle

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Change the two opposing air slots into three equally spaced slots for better mixture swirl; if you need to reduce slot widths to do so that will be fine.

Before you screw the slotted section onto the reducer fitting, grind or sand any excess thread that may be spoiling a smooth flow of the air/gas mixture into the burner's mixing tube. Make sure the mixing tube is a full 8" long inside measurement, which needs to be a fraction of an inch longer than you might think because of possible loss when you clean up the inside of the reducer to threaded pipe connection.

The burner design you are trying to duplicate in simpler fashion uses a butt-weld pipe reduce to achieve smooth airflow; its mixture speed is able to get by with a tapered flame retention nozzle with an increase in diameter of 1/8" in 1-1/2" of length. But this burner design does better with a stepped nozzle. Your drawing shows a slide-over nozzle that is neither; you might as well have no nozzle at all.

Forget your gas jet and gas tube design, and substitute a 3" long 1/8" schedule #80 pipe cut down from a longer pipe nipple, and screw in a long ()1-1/2") tapered MIG contact tip for .023" welding wire.

The last thing I want to do is discourage you from constructing and interesting variation on a proven burner design, but you would do well to read the thread called Burners 101 before hardening your ideas; just a thought.

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Thanks Mikey98118, I read you and others thoughts and ideas here and appreciate the knowledge and  experience you share. I've been doing tons of research deciding whether to buy or build. I've read the Trex is top dawg for output and controllability. I'm a huge diy kind a guy and don't like coming up short, especially after all the work. Thanks for the input! I may continue the build with your edit suggestions. I'll post progress!

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671,  what is it about the Trex that makes it the top dawg?  the btu charts on their site and the ones for the Zoeller Z burner put the Z burner well ahead of the Trex in output.  At 10 psi the Trex is at around 39 to 40k and the z burner  or the modified side arm burner is around 63k at 10psi.  Just wondering.  I think the Z burner is probably easier to build too.  

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Don't try for THE ideal or best burner, some of us have been making burners as long or longer than Ron and still haven't come up with the BEST. Best is at best a theoretical possibility, not a home built burner.

The Price burners are hardly top dawg. Ron tends to be easy with his praise unless he's ticked at you, he's being VERY generous with Price's burners.

The heat range you want is nothing special, weld to heat treat is the mark of an adequate burner, nothing special.

Pick a set of proven plans and build it as specced. Once you've learned the hows and whys that make induction devices work is the time to start tinkering with something new.

The drawing you posted is a combination of burners and as such is unlikely to be an adequate burner.

Frosty The Lucky.

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50 minutes ago, 671jungle said:

 

...i would like the build to be efficient and achieve a range from heat treat to weld...

I could be wrong.  the Trex is a proprietary reducer and mixing tube.  not off the shelf plumbing parts, so does not lend itself to home brewing.  Trex shown on Ron's page you linked has a forged flare where the ones on the hybred burner page have a machined flare. 

If I were buying, Id look at performance vs price.  the Trex cost 192, plus 14 to deliver.  so for $206 you can have a very nice burner that they claim puts out 40kbtu at 10 psi.  If I moseyed over to Zoeller forge and inked the deal on a modified side arm burner which is $60 plus shipping (not specified, say $14) You'd be in for $74 and have a burner that the university of Kentucky says is rated at 63kbtu at 10 psi.  but if I was building I'd probably try the Z burner as the reducer is probably more available than the ward reducer in the side arm.  That or an original Reil burner with the Bordeaux modification (probably the simplest and cheapest to build) which would meet your requirement in a properly insulated forge of less than 350 cubic inches, or a Frosty T.   But I would not alter the design.  I have a Reil built exactly to his specs and it works like the proverbial champ.  Good luck.  as a post script, I know enough to be dangerous.  , 

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A couple points Mike: First, BTU output doesn't really mean much as a number, he doesn't list it as BTUs per SECOND which is what heats your steel. It also doesn't state an absolute flame temp which is what limits your forge's max internal temp. say, welding temp.

The other thing to take into consideration is marketing hype. The T Rex is or was a Porter type 2 (I believe) modified into something Rex could make work and hasn't seen a significant improvement since. Well, maybe he isn't still machining them from billet anymore. I don't know or care.

Your conclusion re. quality vs. price is correct Mike. 

Shutting up before I get in trouble.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I'm sure you'll do fine 671,  guessing from your research and drafting of they burner, you love the research as much as getting it done.  That's me.  

Frosty, thanks for setting me straight, for what, the 10th or so time?   I do appreciate that you provide knowledge and do it in such a way that the recipient remains receptive.  It is a fine line to walk.  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MotoMike said:

It is a fine line to walk.  

Actually it's a liberal deletion of lines. I'd passed the edit limit when I remembered the anology I needed regarding listing BTUs as a stand alone. It's like listing a motor as being 120v without including the amps. or visa versa. It takes both numbers to pass on useful information regarding output of most any kind.

Jungle guy, first welcome aboard, glad to have you.  I don't want to discourage you from experimenting, I keep seeing excellent burners I never would've believed would work worth beans. I'm being proved wrong too frequently to just tell you your burner won't work. I just think it needs some tweaking and that you're copying the wrong burner designs.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Welcome aboard!

I know even less than enough to be dangerous with gas burners, I’m just plain dangerous!

However I’ve learned a ton from these gents about burners, and one thing that they say is so true (from my own experience as R&D mechanical engineer) is whenever possible START WITH KNOWN PROVEN METHODS, then deviate, and usually one aspect at a time so you understand the action of introduced variables.

On that note, if the Hybrid burner is your muse, then follow it closely. Your sketch shows a rotating choke which they have abandoned because it doesn’t work as well as the sliding choke: they say so one their website, and folks on our forum have proven this fact on burners that are operationally similar. So, I’d change that ASAP. 

In the Burner 101 thread there’s good info on the 3 vs 4 air inlet slots, and some good information on the shape of said slots end shapes, why using MIG tips help both the gas jet shape/flow but also how their tapered external shapes can maximize air induction, etc. It is a ton to read and process, but there’s a true method to Mikey and Frostys designs and ideas (even though one wanted the most expedicious good burner and the other wanted the very best performing burner he could design regardless of effort involved).

Also, Mikey and others have stated that certain burner types work better with some forge designs than others. Since you are still in the burner design or shopping stage, let folks know what sort of forge design you want to go with. IF you give them all the details, have done your footwork to make sure you ask as pertinent as possible questions, they will help steer you straight.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/26/2018 at 2:23 PM, MotoMike said:

  what is it about the Trex that makes it the top dawg?

He's not that far wrong. The Hybrid burner was top dog for about six months; that was close on two decades ago, and it is still one of the best commercial burners  available. It also enjoys the advantage of being sold in several sizes; something that the one  better naturally aspirated commercial burner doesn't come in. The absolute top dog presently for sale would probably be a fan-blown commercial ribbon burner; even that isn't the very best choice for every use...it's kinda tough being top dog :rolleyes:

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Thank all! I was looking for a versatile and mobile burner build and realized the top dog for my needs is the Mikey burner! But it's difficult to track down certain items. My question is "can I use the whole mig gas diffuser and just plug the intake holes? Or can I just leave them open? Its all going the same place, but the tiny intake holes might cause excessive eddy

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Sorry, been busy with other life stuff, forgot about my resources. Profile has been updated. Thanks for the reminder! 

 

Also this is what I meant by using whole diffuser and just stuffing the air intake with some solder, or is it even necessary? Second question is, how do I cut slots without a machine mill? I saw someone drill 2 holes then meet the holes with angle grinder? Seems sloppy, but I guess I could file to near ideal.?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's where I've come. Stainless everywhere! Still some work. Slots in tube, longer joemac style injector to reach burner, and cast. But I only have 5# kastolite30. I have high strength mortar too. And perlite. Could I mix and match or assign? Thanks for all the info and critiques!

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Do not try to mix; instead layer the Kast-O-lite as a hot-face layer, and the Perlite with mortar as a secondary (outer) insulating layer, if you must attempt to use mortar as a refractory ingredient at all.

I think it is only right to forwarn you that you appear to be trying to mate an oversize burner to a very small forge...

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You are trying to build, according to your photo, what I call a bean-can forge. I would suggest you mount a 3/8" size burner to it, as such a small size burner can be turned down low enough not to end up making you miniature forge into a flame thrower You can find instructions on how to build a 3/8" bottle-mount Mikey burner on the Burners 101 thread, or you can build a scaled down version of some other burner design; you can even buy a Hybrid burner in 3/8" size to do the job.

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Thanks Mikey, I will heed your warning and make a bigger body. Maybe this helium tank? With minor tweaks in the side arm  the dimensions will still work with the frame. As far as mixing perlite with mortar for "fill", how fluffy should it be? Just enough mortar to hold the perlite? I understand I don't want too much of a heat sink yet want some retention. Some sweet spot must be met.

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The Freon tank would do best with a 1/2" size burner, but a 3/4" size burner can be turned down low enough to function in it.

Factory cement is a marginal substitute for casting refractory in the first place, so loading it up with all the Perlite it can stick together is all but guarantied to create failure. You want at least one third of the mixture's volume to be cement. It is better to be less than fully dissatisfied with forge efficiency than to have the forge rapidly falling apart. On the other hand the main efficiency of a miniature forge will come up front, do to its small internal volume, and therefor the efficiency returned by one insulation over another is also greatly reduced. Your dissatisfaction with one aspect of the forge or another will be so small that you will have to explain it to others for it to show. Finally, as a hopeless picky butt, I can assure you that you will have regrets no matter how well you build your first few forges, if you allow your mind to play that game. Move forward with a practical plan, and get something done :rolleyes:

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If you’re going to build it why not spend $25 on that online auction place and get some 2600* ceramic wool to line it instead of cement based stuff that might crack, blow up, etc? You spent good money on Kastolite , but you’re putting it over something that’s not recommended by just about anyone. Just curious.

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