jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Sorry about that Frosty.. I have no spacial reasoning in conversations or written words.. It becomes to abstract.. Its one of the largest problems I have now with texting or instant messages where the person is super fast.. I never have a chance to keep up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 I know what you mean, I have a hard time keeping up with fast typing people. I also feel like what I imagine people with asbergers must feel like. I can't tell when someone is joking or being serious. There's no inflection or facial clues to let you know exactly how something's meant. I struggle with it every time I chat online or exchange text messages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 7 hours ago, Frosty said: It's one reason I keep trying to get folks to use known words, names, etc. Absolutely critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 It's also why having the ability to share photos becomes super important.. Depending on region used to dictate as to what something was called.. Just like pulling a shoe, vs rounding a shoe or making a shoe.. sometimes language and meanings can be very localized though in a global type environment it does get diminished some.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 So, the simple response is apparently you disagree with using common words of these crafts, but i know you cant mean that. And, no, there are commonly used terms for both the farrier and the blacksmith. I asked you in a previous post to explain what "pulling a shoe" means as I had never heard that term before. I got no answer, and still aren't sure of your meaning. I've pulled clips but I've never pulled a shoe. I've rolled toes,bent/turned/shaped,rounded a shoe,made a heel calk, etc and most farriers I've come across understand these terms. As far as blacksmithing, I've never come across anyone who doesn't understand "drawing out", so I'd guess that the term "smoosh" must come from a pretty small region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Yup.. Again reread what I wrote.. Not sure where the hostility comes from.. And no this would predicate you are making an assumption.. As written.. The guy who I severed my apprenticeship with called it pulling a shoe.. Maybe its in the heat of the moment.. Don't know, don't really care.. Again, using this as an example of localized gargin vs used everywhere.. It simply means to make a shoe from scratch.. There is pulling a shoe off the horse, and then pulling a shoe as in making one.. And yes, you pull a clip to.. I keep hoping our forum relationship will take a turn for the better since I know it's certainly better to compliment a craftsman than to always be indifferent even though the techniques are talked about or explained differently.. Maybe the problem really is the language barrier.. Each post I read of yours is the same information I have or understand.. it's just different.. If you want to go through and pick apart written or videos or what have you be my guest.. The point is I'm sure I could learn something from you.. Not sure what, but I learn something from everybody including and its usually the new smith.. I'm sure you have never smooshed a bug.. or smooshed mud under your foot.. The expression is simply that.. Do you forge metal, sure.. Forging of metal is in simple terms smooshing it into shape.. You wanna be knit picky so be it.. I can smoosh metal all day long if I like.. Again.. I don't know where your attitude comes from but hey to each there own.. I'm pretty sure many people get my point or explanations.. If they don't than please ask again.. As I certainly don't want the information I am trying to share to be anything but precise and pin point.. Somehow.. There are only a few who don't seem to understand what it is that I write.. I might be living in a cloud of my own making though.. So it's hard to tell.. Picking apart anything is the easiest thing to do.. Stepping up and showing, telling, helping can be the toughest thing to do because it puts you out in front.. This has been the case all my life.. i don't want to play the capable female card but this has been the case more than a time or 2.. Pick away.. Was the same deal with the duck tape and wrapping the shank of a hardie.. Sure.. it works.. I prefer using the UHM.. Looking forwards to a time when this turns productive.. or more so.. LOL.. LIke two little kids.. It's kinda getting old.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunterbow Smithy Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Here's a really simple one I made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Ease up Jennifer, Anvil is more frustrated than hostile. You've told folks up front you're a blacksmith not a wordsmith, he's just looking for the definition of a term not a long discussion. I have to reread your posts often enough and still not sure what you're trying to say sometimes. It wasn't till the 3rd. paragraph you finally explained what you mean by "pulling a shoe". Whether said in the "heat of the moment" or as an example. If someone wants to know what a term means what's wrong with just telling them in plain English? You aren't getting the resistance nor hostility you seem to think. I'm sure you've taken a lot of guff over the years but you aren't getting it here. Honest, you don't have detractors. None that count anyway. We all have detractors . . .Pffft. Now PLEASE take a breath and look at how long and angry your post is in response to a repeat request for clarification over a term. Sure it was obviously a frustrated request, you hadn't answered and were continuing to use a term he (heck, WE) didn't understand. We all get frustrated and it gets away from us. It doesn't mean we're being picky, if someone doesn't understand then they don't understand. What does a good teacher do with a student who didn't understand something? Please don't go off on me Jennifer, I'm trying to be helpful to you and the community as a whole. We're all friends here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Nice work, Hunterbow. It would serve its purpose well. Simple is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Frosty.. Well, if that is the case it was a complete miss understanding on my part and I am certainly feeling like a heel.. " Then I am sorry Anvil for not getting the question and apologize for throwing attitude.. I am very sorry'.. Please accept my apology.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Thanks, Jen, Thats all you needed to say the first time. But i have to add, that conversation had absolutely nothing to do with making a shoe from scratch,,, we were talking of turning a shoe over the horn. So perhaps you will understand my being confused. 10 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: It simply means to make a shoe from scratch So lets cut to the chase. This is the third time ive done this with you. First time was quick ann dirty and with a humorous tone. The second was the post on half penny scrolls, I believe. I did that one very consciously in a gentle manner and even apologized for any misunderstanding you may have had. Time to be a bit more straight forward. To do this im going to show your journey that got you to this point. I'm doing this out of respect. I believe that understanding this journey that every working traditional smith makes is unique and is the only way to inspire new folks to give it a try. All of our journeys are different, with some similarities. They need to be brought out as there are no contemporary business plans that apply to craftsmen of any sort, especially blacksmiths. I look at your journey with much respect. This info comes from my reading your posts on the public forum here. Its a beautiful journey. The first vignette happens somewhere between 4-9 years of age. I have two beautiful daughters and this beginning of yours always brings them to my mind. I picture a fireplace or a wood burner in a living room and here you are heating bits of iron, hitting it with some sort of hammer on whatever worked as an anvil! Its a beautiful image and a fine start for any smith. Special kudos to your parents for not shutting you down for playing with fire in the living room! Next is a time between your late teens and early 20's where you had a colonial hardware business. You quit this due to not making enough money. You also have stated that after this, you could not raise your arm over your head for 2-3 years. Again, a great experience on your journey. Reasons dont matter, lessons and learning do. And for what its worth you are the only person ive ever met that became a farrier from the blacksmith's craft! If your time as a farrier was anything like mine, there was precious little time to do much else than be a farrier. It was dang hard for me, after 3 years, to cut back from 7 daze a week to 6! i was able to teach myself how to make pony shoes and draft horse shoes,,, but thats it. And I was not a hot shoer, I was, other than that, a cold shoer. And that brings up to this next phase. I believe you have stated that 3 or 4 years ago you have decided to pursue traditional smithing and become a teacher. You have stated as well that you dont believe that its possible to make a living as a traditional smith, thus your choice to set up a school and teach. A good goal, and one I respect. Anyone who can make a living between hammer and anvil, no matter their product, holds a special place in my eyes. One critique. I firmly believe that anybody can succeed as a traditional smith at this time. However, Id say, considering all the pathways that focus on iron in any manner, we working smiths prolly stand as true 1%'rs. So it certainly isnt easy. If i chose that, Id have to say I choose to teach, not do commission work, or whatever, not "you cant". Truth be, i know some great smiths who have chosen that pathway. Not a one has ever implied "you cant make a living as a traditional smith!" Now these last years of your journey. Again, much respect. I dont know how long I've been here, but its been long enough that the "nick" anvil was not in use. Ive come and gone as a participant but have lurked much of the time. I believe you became an internet entity in my life sometime during these last 2 years or so. Again you stand high in my regards for what you are doing. You, of all here, including me, spend more time in the fire than anyone. Not only that but you document your work with excellent video's. You definitely show the 3 "D"'s, desire, dedication, and determination I put this here because I want you and all on this forum to know how I feel about you. From the horses mouth, not anyones assumption. You might wonder why I do this. Its pretty simple. I have knowledge from a number of great smiths. I have a self imposed obligation to pass this knowledge on. Thus, during this last 4-5 years thats been my focus. I name them because i believe that adds to this 2000+ year continuum into the 21st century. So, with any luck, they continue to be apart of the lore from the time when i began smithing. And this keeps me active mentally, at the very least, as a working traditional smith, in another roll other than working commissions. When i do this, present "differences", I never have any expectations of anybody trying them, for any reason. However,Just like i had absolute faith that I would "succeed" as a traditional smith, I do know that there will be those who will try some of my suggestions. Ive had perhaps a short dozen who have let me know its been a help to them. I suspect there is an equal number that only know that someone named"anvil", wrote a post that helped them,,, and they will never know who anvil is. This bit is to let you know just who I post for. Its never for those who think I come from anger, or "to pick you apart". It is to present differences to those who are interested. Again, isnt that the reason we are here? Differences, Why do they bother you? Im puzzled. That has been your issue with me for a while now. What are differences? Your responses to me appear to be that im "showing" a better way than your way. Huh? I suggest that if this is your reason, you have a problem. So deal with it. I refuse to fall into that kind of discussion. Different means different. I look at different um, er, differently,,, Lets call these differences "techniques". Two techniques to create a similar detail. This gives the smith ways of changing the aesthetic of that particular detail. Wow, what a concept. Take a branch detail. You can, simply said, jump weld say a short piece of half square to the middle of a long piece of half square. works fine. note im leaving out details here. A second way is to take two pieces of half and weld them together for the branches. Then weld on the stem. One might think why do i need to do two forge welds to get to the same place as a single weld? Easy, the second way with two forge welds, gives me more material to play with this transition. I know you have problems with words, but until i get my forge running, thats as good as it gets. To sum that up, Jen, When you continually "critique me on being angry, and showing "only a different way", time and again, I can only guess that what you want is when you post a technique, you dont want me to show a different way for whatever your reason. Am I correct? And Hey, smoosh if you want. this whole thing started because i agreed with another here that using proper terminology is a plus. I still believe that. And smoosh might work on a bug, but it just dont fly in a blacksmith shop. And ive known and worked with too many fine lady smiths to get into that feminist deal. Two come to mind, and without a doubt if anybody ever pulled the fem card on them, you better be quick on your feet or have a good insurance policy. That would be Dorothy Stigler and Iron Maegan (Maegan Crowley) from Dolores just up the road. You are prolly about the same age, or at least closer in age to each other than either of you are to me. She is a top notch smith and often demos on the east coast. Well worth seeing if she is in your area. Not you per say, Jen as i hesitate to suggest anything to you. And without a doubt, we have clashed a few times over various things. "Picking" on you its not. Too bad you feel that way. However With your inability to read and understand words it makes the written word inappropriate. Thus a waste of time. We do know how you feel about my pics, correct? So they are not an option in our discussions. However, the trees are budding in the valleys,,,, Edit: Im not going to delete this post, but I want you to know that i had not read Frosty"s latest or yours before posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Its not that you do it.. It's how you do it.. I keep trying to answer your questions or your comments only for you to change what it is I wrote by pulling out of context, or have all ready covered info giving you more fodder.. You don't really know me.. You might think you do.. You might even think you get part of it because of what I have shared.. Your time lines and understanding of my journey are off but I wouldn't expect anything less.. I know what I see when I see it.. and I can see exactly what you are doing.. Again.. I'm sorry.. I've said it time and time again.. as I have with all of the information, forge techniques what have you.. I don't fault you.. I don't even disagree with you, just see it differently. The problem is presenting information as " This is how I do it" Vs :This is how I do it vs this person and why my way is better".. it's okay if you believe your way is better.. Heck its even ok if you want to compare.. But each time.. Really.. And this is the point i have a lot.. People will compare how they do something.. "This is how I do it and here are the reasons why".. Vs "This is the way I do it. and it's better then the way this person does it" There is an expression which I do not particularly like, but.. Its fitting.. "But".. Nice job, but.. I can see what you are doing.. I imagine you are quite good at chess.. You can certainly choose to do and answer how ever you would like.. I feel really very badly that this relationship has taken such a bad turn.. You reached out to me originally to tell me to do something differently because you think it's better.. and we had many conversations as to when I could see the video so you could show me the errors of my ways.. Since reading the instructions was not good.. You still think i have many faults as a blacksmith.. LOL.. I also imagine my comments have somehow scorn you.. Sadly, I do best just speaking candidly but it's very short and misconstrued.. I don't have a kind talk, middle kind talk and now laying out there.. It's all the same.. Really this whole thing between us just makes me sad. For some reason this is the type of relationship we are to have.. I haven't quite figured it out yet.. (usually what one sees in themselves creates the greatest confict with others) It just make me very sad.. To think that there are 2 talented blacksmiths with some common training and traits both on the job and such.. But yet can't seem to find the common ground other than a very large topic as "Blacksmithing and farrier" and then one can't ever agree with what the other does simply because.. I keep saying it.. If your way is better than show it.. It's the only way I will learn it.. Throwing more words at it won't work.. and without seeing it. its' vegatable soup.. I feel like each time I have to write this stuff.. It's just a waste of productive time and instead of helping each other is just goes further into the toilet.. With this said.. I still stick by my original apology and double down on it.. For I can see my part as played and while I never meant to hurt your feelings or cross a line it's very hard when all there is, is written on a forum with someone who is both dyslexic, with a few other problems with social cues on the side.. I would have like to imagine that had we had forge time together it would be a completely different situation.. So with that.. I will certainly miss getting together so you could show me the errors of my forging ways.. Blessing be upon you.. and I deeply regret my part as played.. Best Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 12 blacksmiths in a room, 18 opinions on how it should be done. There is no proper way, just get to where you want it to be, and so long as you get there safely, what's the problem? As you progress and see different smiths using different techniques, yet ending up with a similar result, you can make your own mind up and develop your techniques from them. I think it is good that we can all agree to differ. As someone who has made his living from traditional blacksmithing for over forty years, and being involved with teaching techniques for over twent five of them (Not for financial gain but to keep the craft alive and promoting other smiths) My observation is that by teaching classes, it is a relatively easier way to make money than doing the so called 'Proper stuff' with all the pressures that entails. I'm too old to know it all, and there is such a lot more to learn, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 46 minutes ago, John B said: I'm too old to know it all, and there is such a lot more to learn, That is the truth. Tie that in to we blacksmiths are over a hundred years away from when we were common on every street and, and in the US our craft was nearly lost during the early to mid 20th century we will never have the basic knowledge that most apprentices had "back in the day". Thus the importance in passing on every possible way we come across to do any detail. So, Jen, another long post from you. And what did you get out of it? That by presenting different techniques I'm showing a better way than you? You do have a reading problem. Sheesh, I can't even compliment you on your journey without you coming down on me,,, lol, you can lead a horse to water,,, 15 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: For I can see my part as played and while I never meant to hurt your feelings or cross a line And yes you did cross the line, and on a public forum.. It's up to you to deal with that directly, or not. It's your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Let's see some more fire pokers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Well here is a handle made 2 days ago that was going to be a poker, still might be but.. Anyhow it's a story.. Comparison with the other flat twist handle.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Nice job, Jen, I e never seen that particular type basket before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Thanks.. I started a thread on it here: You might enjoy it... I'm going to give it another try before I set down to do the video.. Certainly not for the faint of heart.. I won't give details as I have a guy on my facebook page who wants to try it with no help and demanded I allow him some time to make one himself before I give away the info.. As you know it can be a tough one to get the faces fo the flats to remain on the outside.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Getting back to the topic, (well part of it) here are some poker handles you may or may not be interested in, all have variations, and most can be opend out into cage type twists. The top one of these is similar to the one Jlps did, but uses just two twisted square bars, and two round bars, and again could be opened up int a cage. This is the mid one prior to opening up to a cage. This is a Claydon Knot being used as a poker handle. Don't know if you would describe this as a poker or a wand? Then it can develop into, Drat, going off topic again, Maybe have to add one on Claydon Knots variations and uses. Enjoy and stay safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Nice work, John. Ive done a few jobs with the Claydon clamp, but never Ive done a Claydon knot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Nice work.. I especially like the poker/wand.. The form is interesting being pushed back into itself..Same with the candle holder.. Are you holding it with a vise swage/form on the upset? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: Nice work.. I especially like the poker/wand.. The form is interesting being pushed back into itself..Same with the candle holder.. Are you holding it with a vise swage/form on the upset? Thanks Jennifer, I like to us as few tools as possible, hammer, hearth, anvil and the occasional leg vise usually, This is just a result of the amount of twisting as it closes up the rods after the ends are welded, then I rolled it up on the anvil and brought them together, both ends, and to get the bunched up section in the centre, placed one rolled up section into the pritchel hole on the anvil (or you could use a bolster plate as in the picture) and tapped it down, the other end then can be easily opened up into the cage. I should have firewelded a ball end on, but forge brazed on a ball as an afterthought, The pointed end was a result of trying to determine how good the fireweld was, the finished item has been lying around for a good few years now, so it seems to have taken successfully. Hope this has been of assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HojPoj Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 That strikes me as less of a poker/wand, and looks more like what I'd call a short sceptre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 it looks like a ceremonial device to me for sure. It's cool. I haven't seen anything like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 It is what it is, an experiment when I tried to make a Claydon Knot, that was the fourth playtime, There are other developments that occurred as I was trying to get comfortable with . Here are the others. All were done using 5mm rod(3/16") 1st attempt 2cnd attempt 3rd attempt I only used 5 rods, but cannot find a picture which is a shame because I quite liked it as it left a pentagon effect on the end view. Don't be frightend to play, the worst that can happen is you learn something from it, even a disaster is a good example of what not to do! Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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