Ultimate Forge Design -- Help Needed

[a456bt]

WARNING: Really sorry for the long post,  however I would really appreciate if you took the time to read through as this is pretty much every question I have about forges rolled into one.

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Hey guys,

Been piecing together my ultimate forge over the last month. I hit a bit of a road bump in needing to know how to weld but I got all that sorted out and am now prepping to cut my material and go ahead with my forge design. I made a scale model of it in Sketchup and I was really happy with it at the time, but now I'm not so sure.

I have already made my burner. It is a forced air burner with a 1" through pipe. I plan on creating a 12" long ribbon burner attachment for it, although this may change if I change the dimensions of my forge.

After using a makeshift paint can forge for a while I realized a couple things.

1. Forges use a crazy amount of fuel, and I should probably be trying to mitigate that.

2. Steel plate and such that may act as a table around the mouth of the forge will, despite not being in direct contact with the flame, warp very easily.

3. The concrete I have is very hard to lay and essentially has to be cast. It does not work well in just laying it down by hand without a way to keep it in place while you tamp it; It will just fall apart otherwise.

4. My burner doesn't heat NEARLY as well as I was led to believe by all of the forced air fanboys out there. I am skeptical as to how much of a difference a ribbon burner will make.

With these things in mind I am becoming increasingly wary and skeptical of my "ultimate" design and would like to ask you guys for suggestions on how to improve it. At the end of the day, I want the forge to be able to accomplish forging blades, from small knives all the way up to large swords, hammers and other hand tools, axe heads, and smelting aluminum in a graphite crucible. I may want to forget about the smelting capabilities if you guys think it will be too much of a burden though. I am planning on lining the forge with about 2" of Kaowool and about a 1/4" of castable refractory (this was originally modelled as 1" of each, but I have since realize that I need no more than a thin layer of castable).

I have pictures of the model as well as the model itself available for download here:

Imgur

Sketchup Model

This is what I'm wondering:

1. I realize now the hinges will likely not hold the door up reliably and if they do they will likely break through warping and rusting -- what is a better solution for doors? I have seen interesting hinge designs with bars and rivets, as well as others with pulleys.

2. Is it worth even having doors? I've seen designs where people just lock in some firebrick at the bottom with some angle iron and it just slides across like a door.

3. Have any of you ever felt the need for an opening at the back of your forge larger than mine? (4" wide 2" high)

4. Will a single ribbon burner with a 12" long manifold be able to reliably heat the size of chamber I have designed, regardless of how much propane it takes?

5. If so, will this take a tremendous amount of propane to do so?

6. If the burner won't heat this large of a chamber, what is the largest I could reliably heat?

7. I have the height of my forge designed quite high as I wanted to be able to fit a crucible in. Do you guys think it is worth the extra heating cost, or do you think I would benefit from bringing the height of the forge down?

8. If so, what is an ideal height for a forge to do what I want (mostly just blade work)

9. Is there any benefit to having a long forge like this? Should I decrease the length of the forge? Perhaps the same benefits, if any, would be had with something even yet shorter?

10. On my paint can forge I have an unsupported piece of steel plate that it sits on and this has steadily warped quite easily. Will the welded piece as shown in my model do the same, or will it hold up?

 

Sorry for the long post once again! Thank you everyone!

[jeremy k]

Read thru the gas forge section of this forum and you'll find more info than you can imagine, as well as these questions have been addressed many times in the past. Please take your time to do your research, the answers are there along with very tried and true designs.

[WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith]

Check out the Build a Gas Forge, Ribbon_Burner, Building_A_Forge_With_A_Ribbon_Burner

Let me know if I can help you.

Wayne Coe

[a456bt]

4 hours ago, jeremy k said:

No need to quote what we all just read

Sorry my bad, I should have taken more time to seek the answers. Didn't mean to bother you guys with nonsense. Thank you.

[JHCC]

Also, please keep in mind that “ultimate” (i.e., “last”) is probably not a good adjective to have in mind when designing. There is no one forge that is “best” for all applications, and you may find yourself a few years down the road focusing (or wanting to) on work that doesn’t fit this particular setup. Think instead, “What is the best forge that I can make to suit my current needs and desired capacities?” and go from there — being prepared to revisit this question regularly.

Also, even the most durable forges are subject to wear and tear, so don’t be upset if you find yourself eventually needing to repair or replace elements of any particular build. Take that as an opportunity to tweak and improve. 

[Steve Sells]

you for got a big question:

"How long will my forge last before the concrete EXPLODES and hurts me"

 

[jlpservicesinc]

The reason Steve Sells wrote it the way it is..   Cement or concrete is not the same as high temp refractory... 

Proper word usage is important to keep things clear from every bodies understanding..    

Regular cement or concrete can explode violently when heated to high temps.. 

[Glenn]

There is no best forge for all situations. There are good forge designs for the situation at hand.

Much like saying what is the best vehicle? Are you are going to haul 20 tons of material, 20 people, go 200 miles an hour or a vehicle so the wife go to town? The same with forges.

For instance, make a forge so you can switch out a single burner, double burner, forced air burner, ribbon burner, etc. You can then tell which burner works best for that forge design. Make ONE forge and learn what it can do, then make a second forge to certain things better. 

 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

12 hours ago, a456bt said:

if you took the time to read through

This thread is pretty self explanatory. Have you read it yet?

 

[a456bt]

Yeah I’m really sorry everyone. I didn’t mean to be so ignorant, I’ll likely just delete the thread and learn what I can from other people’s questions

[Frosty]

A person can't be a quitter and expect to succeed at anything. Nobody is born knowing anything so asking ignorant questions is how you correct ignorance. Every question is an effort to stop being ignorant. We all are, we'll go to our graves, if we lived to be a thousand, ignorant.

However, you'll be able to ask better questions once you have a handle on the craft. Jargon is a trade language with terms and usages specific to a craft or trade. Many of the smith's words mean something entirely different than in the normal world. Then there are the different processes, the what, how and why of them is craft specific. 

Do a little reading and try to ignore what you see on Youtube or other social media, most of the blacksmithing you see there is derived from games, not working hot steel.

Stick with us, whatever your name is, we'll get you up and smithing.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

15 hours ago, a456bt said:

smelting aluminum in a graphite crucible.

A good example of the correct jargon. Smelting is extracting metal from ore. What you are trying is melting. I know you are thinking we are being critical and picking on you, but what you don't understand is this forum is used by folks from around 150 countries world wide and all the answers are read from all over the world, not just by you.

[a456bt]

5 hours ago, Frosty said:

A person can't be a quitter and expect to succeed at anything. Nobody is born knowing anything so asking ignorant questions is how you correct ignorance. Every question is an effort to stop being ignorant. We all are, we'll go to our graves, if we lived to be a thousand, ignorant.

Thanks so much Frosty. I definitely won’t quit, and I will keep learning. 

5 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

A good example of the correct jargon. Smelting is extracting metal from ore. What you are trying is melting. I know you are thinking we are being critical and picking on you, but what you don't understand is this forum is used by folks from around 150 countries world wide and all the answers are read from all over the world, not just by you.

That’s actually something I didn’t know, I thought smelting was just melting metal; good to know! Other than that I totally understand. The number of times I’ve learned things by searching up questions on google and reading the answers on a forum is immeasurable. I imagine the people here have to be careful that they are not only answering my questions but leaving a record for anyone else with the same questions in the future. I’ll make sure to try and stay correct in my usage of language for the future.

10 hours ago, Glenn said:

There is no best forge for all situations. There are good forge designs for the situation at hand. Make ONE forge and learn what it can do, then make a second forge to certain things better. 

Yeah i guess that’s kind of what I meant. I’m looking for the “ultimate” forge for what I want to accomplish, which is bladesmithing and tool making. I’m sure I’ll find one pertaining to these specifications somewhere on the forum. Thanks Glenn.

12 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

The reason Steve Sells wrote it the way it is..   Cement or concrete is not the same as high temp refractory... 

Yeah I meant refractory. Rest assured, I’m not using cement haha.

[ThomasPowers]

Would you want to buy a car designed by someone who doesn't know how cars work and has never driven one?  I strongly suggest you take a known good design and copy it EXACTLY.  Using it will allow you to try changes to make it better for your particular use. (Like I have not needed a bigger back exit than 4x2 when bladesmithing; but have used one for other hobby smithing.  My forge has the choice of opening the entire back up.)

"Is it worth even having doors? I've seen designs where people just lock in some firebrick at the bottom with some angle iron and it just slides across like a door."   May I point out that this line can be rewritten as: ""Is it worth even having doors? I've seen designs where people just make doors from firebrick."

Confusing smelting for melting is a big boo boo  for us folks who have smelted various metals from ore---especially with respect to Al which is commercially smelted through an electrolytic process and not just heat!

I generally like melting metal for casting in my coal forge: (Copper, silver, brass, bronze) I have melted steel in my propane forge but that was a big boo boo!

[Mikey98118]

10 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Is it worth even having doors? I've seen designs where people just lock in some firebrick at the bottom with some angle iron and it just slides across like a door."   May I point out that this line can be rewritten as: ""Is it worth even having doors? I've seen designs where people just make doors from firebrick."

Good question; I think the answer is one of those personal decisions 

[Mikey98118]

20 hours ago, a456bt said:

4. My burner doesn't heat NEARLY as well as I was led to believe by all of the forced air fanboys out there. I am skeptical as to how much of a difference a ribbon burner will make.

When I first started designing burners the fan-blown burner crowd's contention that naturally aspirated burners didn't get hot enough had already been disproved buy three different NA burner designs; that was 1999, and NA burners are a lot hotter these days. Not that fan-blown burners can't also be plenty hot. the point is that you want to carefully watch the source of such outdated views. If somebody told you that steam cars were the latest thing you'd tune that person out right? In fact, a carefullu desighed and constructed burner is what you need, whether fan-flown, vortex, or NA.

[ThomasPowers]

My forced air burner uses a much larger pipe: 2";  Built it at a SOFA gas forge building workshop around 20 years ago.  1" seems awfully small. pr*r*r => pi*.25 vs pi*1.  It's the old Peot forge design and Hans was there critiquing us as we built them.