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JPH

Press pump problem??

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Hello

OK I have a puzzlement.. I set up my press now that I am settled in down here in the Florida Jungle..got it plumbed back up.,.motor/pump mounted...frame up on the stand...solenoid secured and the tank filled with hydraulic fluid  (I was using AFT before this...but I went to the gen-u-ine hydraulic fluid cause I flushed out the system..and it was a lot less $$ than the ATF) .. All is well and good..  I started the  motor up and the pump started humming...but no movement on the cylinder..it should of come up...I hit the down pedal and that's when it got interesting...

All sorts of sparks started coming off the pump..I shut everything down PDQ and now I am wondering...could the problem be I mis-wired the motor when I hooked it back up...?? Could the pump be turning the wrong way? At a loss here...NO movement in the cylinder but there is fluid in the lines between the tank to pump to return..There is absolutely no way I hooked the hoses wrong as they are not long enough to mix up...I circuit checked everything electric wise and that checks out good as well... My only spot I am unsure of it the motor wiring..

Any ideas???

THANKS ALL

JPH

 

 

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No clue about the pump, but VERY happy to see you posting again.

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No expert here, but if it is a 3 phase motor it is certainly possible to reverse the rotation direction by switching a pair of wires.  This may even vary based on the wiring of your breaker panel, so replicating what you had at your previous shop will not necessarily duplicate rotation at the new one.  My suggestion would be to detach the motor from the pump and ensure you can run the motor in the correct direction before hooking it up.  From the photo it looks like that should be very straightforward. 

Once you verify motor operation you can go on to see if your pump and hydraulic system are still working.  Hopefully someone with more hydraulic experience will chime in with other potential failure modes for hydraulics and controls as all I can do is speculate there.

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I checked everything three times 3....it has to be the motor rotation..."xxxx It Jim I'm a bladesmith not a hydraulic engineer" once I screw up enough courage to get down there and get a good look I will give it another go.. I am a bit gun shy at the moment..

It is just I am so close to being set up and his is stalling everything.. Well Murphy strikes again...

I'll figure it out...just want to make sure before I do anything else..

JPH

Here are some pics...I am working on this and letting it percolate before I do anything else...the last thing I need is to wind up a smoldering grease spot on the floor... 

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Some single phase motors can also change rotation.. I agree that if everything was working with Julius Squeezer before the move that the rotation is probably the problem here. I take it that it is wired for the correct voltage (120-208-220). The sparking is concerning though. Hopefully the windings were not damaged. It also looks like it is a capacitor start motor so you may have cooked a capacitor. They work in conjunction with a centrifugal switch, and if that switch doesn't work (stalled motor) they can blow. Luckily they are not that expensive. I had a switch come loose on a drill press, and just slipped on the shaft. When the cap blew it sounded like a shotgun.  To test the motor, disconnect it at the pump, check to see if it is a reversible motor by the data plate or wiring diagram inside the pecker head. Note the proper rotation if single direction. Start it and i it fires up in the right direction, you are good. If it just hums shut it off and get a small rope or heavy cord. Wrap the cord around the output shaft so it spins the right direction when pulled. Give it a good pull and immediately hit the on switch. If it stays running , a cap is blown. If it doesn't run the windings might toast, or shorted somewhere. Once the magic smoke is gone it can get expensive to put more in.

 

Good luck, and good to see you posting again. I was wondering how you were making out down in Florida. I'm sure you are not missing the 110F-115F and monsoon humidity we are experiencing.

Forgot to add, that some motors have a start and a run capacitor, so there may be two under the cover.

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I've used Baldor motors for various projects, They should have product information packets for their motors on their website. Go to www.baldor.com and enter your motor's model number in the search field. In the results, click on "Products." The motor's product page should come up. There should be a link on that page to the product information packet. Hope that helps a bit.

Al (Steamboat)

 

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OK let me clear up something up as I may of been a bit vauge...the motor runs..runs great...but when I hit the control pedal that activates the solenoid that is when the trouble starts...it just sparks at the pump...all the while the motor keep running...I think that it is turning the wrong way cause I wired it wrong when I got down here....I have a diagram I pulled from Baldor and  I will see what is what... This would explain why the cylinder did nothing when I first fired it up...

I checked the  alignment between the motor, spider and pump and it looks good there.. so in a few minutes I will go out and give it another go.... More as things progress..

THANK YOU all for the ideas...

JPH 

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ok..here's the dope...the re-orientation of the pump/motor/ seems to of solved that problem...now I may have a busted solenoid...given all the bumps and shocks that the thing went through it is not surprise there as these things can be a bit sensitive to shock.. I DO have fluid flow to the solenoid but not on the down line side..so something isn't opening.. So now the search begins...

More as things happen

JP (Murphy was a real pip) H

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8 hours ago, JPH said:

I am settled in down here in the Florida Jungle..

My wife & I moved from the Florida asphalt jungle (Miami) to Arkansas 36 years ago and never looked back.

Can't help with the press (pump/motor) but like others said glad to see you posting again. Have often thought about how the new shop was progressing, how about some pictures when you get a chance... no hurry.

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Solenoids are really pretty tough where bumps, jolts and general abuse is concerned, not much to break, they usually don't even have much for openings for junk to get in. It operates the hydraulic flow valve, yes? 

Cross wiring and shooting electrons the wrong way is never good. Sparks from a solenoid usually mean it's fried, buy a new one time. Even if it'll click back and forth it may not have enough strength to do it's job anymore. Sort of like me. 

Flow on the supply (pump) side and none on the outlet side says the valve isn't working. Try manually moving the valve. If you get circulation my bet is a fried solenoid. 

You know a foot pedal manual hyd valve would take care of this happening again. You can use a standard manual valve and rig a foot treadle, link rod and return spring. Foot valves and a couple more hoses would be a bit spendy but it won't fail again in our lifetimes.

I probably wouldn't change to a manual valve unless what you have now is one of those integrated solenoid valve things where you can't change the failed component. If you can just change the solenoid that's what I'd do, if not I'd seriously think about going manual valve.

One last detail Jim, when you say there's flow TO the valve, is it strong, lots of fluid under pressure? It needs BOTH, I wasn't the first guy who saw one or the other and thought I had a good pump but it turned out the pump or a bypass valve was shot. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Howdy...

OK..I have fluid flow to the solenoid and back..NOTHING goes through to the cylinder..just does the loop which it is suppose to do...from the pump...on through to the tank return.. It was working 100% fine when I broke it down for the move...This isn't the first solenoid I had to put in..this is No 3..so I'll just change it out and that should do the trick..I hope it does...

as for pics...here ya go..a progression... so more as things happen

JPH

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Hmmm, looks just like my shop, except it is about 4 times as large, has higher ceiling, is cleaner, better constructed, better organized...:lol:

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...and with significantly less glassblowing equipment. 

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Hello:

wait till ya see it all finished and set up..still have a lot of hand tools to put in as well as my LG and my fly press...that should be done this weekend and then I am finally back to work..if all goes half way right...hunted down a new solenoid...got three places that I can go..who ever can get it to me quickest gets my lucre

JPH

 

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Hydraulics dont usually give off sparks unless it does turn out to be the solenoid My first thought was a problem with the coupling between the motor and pump and maybe a stripped or missing key/keyway or a tapered shaft and couplig being loose or damaged and starting to slip when the load comes on I have come across this in the past and its not obvious what the problem is

Cheers

Beaver

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19 hours ago, JPH said:

OK..I have fluid flow to the solenoid and back..NOTHING goes through to the cylinder..just does the loop which it is suppose to do...from the pump...on through to the tank return.. It was working 100% fine when I broke it down for the move...This isn't the first solenoid I had to put in..this is No 3..so I'll just change it out and that should do the trick..I hope it does...

Ayup, valve isn't being thrown. Dead solenoid. 

How often have you had to change solenoids? Three in . . . ever is a lot. There really isn't anything to a solenoid, just an electro magnet, iron shaft in a sleeve  and a return spring. They usually last forever unless they have levers to increase force or throw distance. 

This will be something to think about if I ever set up a hyd. press.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty..this will be the third in 17 years or so...

As far as the sparks...that has ceased (at least for the moment) ...we will see what happens when the pump comes under load when I replace the solenoid...ordered it today..no one had  a suitable replacement locally so....

Tomorrow I move the fly press and my 25# LG in...fun fun fun

JPH...

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most solenoid valves have a manual button, try it with the pump turned off first to see if both move, it may be stuck.

then check there is a voltage to each coil when there should be and that the coils are not open or short circuited

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18 hours ago, the iron dwarf said:

quote removed

Actually thats right you can also often put an allen key or such down a hole in the solenoid spigot and push it in to manually trigger it as well

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Hello:

No soap on the manual over ride..this puppy doesn't have one... so i wait till the replacement gets here..still wrestling with the fly press and LG..it's a bit difficult for a one man op to do but hey..I can get creative and I will get it done in the next few days..I still have a bunch of small stuff to do in the mean time.. I did get to mount my bench shear and buffer...plus made a few more shelves and SLTT along with setting my two post vises and the last two bench vises..still have to stain some benches..got the small forge up on the bench and the refractory covering laid down...so all in all  a more or less decent day..

More as things progress

JPHJ

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Hmmmm. Can't throw the valve manually eh? Might be time for an upgrade. I have little experience with solenoid actuated hydraulic valves, ours were all manual or air over hydraulic. The air overs all had a manual actuator. It would've been darned hard to use one under pressure but they were made to connect to linkage and a lever. in case one failed in the field. 

What are the specs on the press and the valve? I'll do some looking and see what's out there. You shouldn't be dead in the water over a valve. I really hate to see you having to decorating and do housekeeping in your shop rather than making blades. :blink:

Frosty The Lucky.

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I would recheck your wiring both on your motor and your solenoid and limit switches if you have any.

From what you are discribing. It sounds like it sparks when you activate the solenoid.. Your motor is insulated from your press with the wood frame it is attached too.. The sparks you see I'm assuming is coming from the pump/spider/motor contact point.. Its creating a ciruit and is either traveling from the motor to your press or from your solenoid/press to the motor. (traveling through your hydraulic hoses since they are wire reinfored it is possible for them to contuct electricity) I would guess some where there is a wire crossed or touching another wire or metal frame. 

Your motor does have a ground wire hooked up? 

 

Jeff

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Jeffery:  Hummmmm interesting...never thought of that..I will check tomorrow AM on the wiring... You ARE Correct..the sparks happen at the place you mentioned...at the spider between the motor and pump....when I activate the solenoid....there could be a short in there... I will look...  THANK YOU...

I will let ya know....now I get to drain the tank so I can replace the solenoid... fun fun fun..

JPH

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