Kane Brake Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Can anyone explain the difference between wrought specification like H13 tool steel and cast specification like maybe ductile cast iron? It's a frustrating topic for Holland Anvils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 So, wrought is defined by Merriam Webster as " beaten into shape by tools".... So "forged" would be a synonym. Perhaps to you are thinking about "wrought iron" which is a term used for a type of iron that was made before modern production techniques. It s used for the body of many anvils, but a hardened steel plate was attached for the face of the anvil as wrought iron is very soft. These anvils were wrought or forged into shape. Cast Iron is a modern iron that is very brittle and is used to make poor quality anvils (Fisher and Vulcan being exceptions since they have A STEEL Face. Ductile iron can make a serviceable anvil, but most cast iron anvils ARE NOT DUCTILE unless specified) . Cast anvils are made when molten metal is poured into a mold. Cast iron =bad. H13 is high quality steel, so a cast h13 should be very good. You may want to research the qualities of h13 of you are concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 How do you compare 'Apples', 'Oranges', 'Grapefruit' and 'Fish'. I can understand why he cut the conversation short. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Additionally, there are alloys that have two receipes: one for casting items to finished shape, and one that is wrought (rolled at the mill) and then is forged or machined to final product shape. A wrought anvil of any iron/steel steel alloy is constructed by hammering said alloy at temperatures of 2200 F MAX down to perhaps 1500 F. A cast anvil, regardless if carbon steel, tool steel, ductile iron or “cast iron” is made by melting said alloy and pouring the molten metal into a mold made of sand or refractories. Wrought anvils, especially those made of wrought iron, can have the grain of the material follow the general shape of said anvil. Cast anvils do not have this feature. Whether it’s better in anvil could be argued til the cows come home. Forged anvils might have welds that could fail or have cold shuts and delaminations. Cast anvils can have porosity in the basic material due to production methods and variables. As for the two alloys you mentioned, not the production methods (there are NO production H13 wrought anvils available) H13 is a more expensive material, with much higher tensile strength and Charpy notch values than ductile iron if they were both heatreated to say 50-55 HRC. Hope this is helpful, as your question was not worded clearly, and seems to point to you not being particularly well versed in production methods nor materials. best Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Brake Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 I don't care anything about Webster's oranges. The question is are Holland Anvils being "cast" from H13 tool steel as they claim or not? $1800 for 260lb H13 tool steel anvil? Can you "CAST" a wrought specification steel like H13? I guess that'll teach me to ask time from people who don't wear a watch. Apples fish Webster's blah blah blah.....cows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 KB: Yes they are, the maker has come to this forum to ask questions of real anvil users before he started making them as a tiny sideline to his industrial casting business. Also yes, comparison shop Fontinini, Nimba, or Peddinghaus for brand new, state of the art anvil prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Brake Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, stevomiller said: Excess quoting removed Holland Anvils offer 260 lb cast H13 tool steel anvil. Only $1800. Hurry and get one now. Over priced spam advert removed Edited July 21, 2018 by Mod34 Clarifying deletion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Kane, you might want to be a bit more civil with others. You came here and made a statement of what transpired between Holland and yourself with an attitude, then asked a question that was so poorly worded that you COULDN’T get an answer that satisfied you, then you cop an attitude. As far as what time it is, you might assess yourself as far as that. To answer your question AGAIN, yes you can cast H13, and yes Holland DOES cast anvils in H13. If you want more information on the properties of ductile cast iron, Google it, and then refer to material science and metallurgy books or websites and figure it out. Admins, please send me a message stating what Kane quoted from me that was GARBAGE and over priced spam, I put nothing in this thread. Additionally you edited his original post without putting comments the post, which now completely changes the content and tone. Curious methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod34 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 stevomiller, the “garbage” referred to was the excess quoting by Kane, not the content of your comment. I’ve edited the mod remark to reflect that. The spam was part of Kane’s subsequent comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Thank you MOD34 for the explanation and sorry for getting my knickers in a bunch. Have a great weekend, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Kane: If you want help put your attitude in a box and close it. What a previous post was trying to point out in a too obscure a manner in an effort to be civil is you don't know enough to ask a meaningful question. That you don't know the difference between cast and wrought is evidence of your lack of knowledge. We don't do product evaluations on demand. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlblohm Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Alright i was going to stay silent but i cant gelp it. I belive this kane brake is actually "Travis" the guy who runs the facebook page anvils and forges for sale. If im wrong please correct me and i know im going to get a rash of crap for slandering someone's name but if you were to check out the page (its not private) you would find the guy sounds just like Kane and if im wrong i dont care because Travis has no buisness running a public forum. Check it out and let me know if you think im wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Kane has gotten himself banned, so lets not talk about a guy that can no longer defend himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlblohm Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Good to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundryguy Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Gents, it's Greg who makes Holland Anvils. The guy Kane, aka Travis, was posting tons of xxxx on my Facebook page. I blocked him but somehow he can still share my page and talk xxxx about my products.? Every anvil I have made is cast H13 and hardened to 52 to 55 Rc. My metallurgist has material certs on every heat we've poured for the past 12 years. The only complaints I have had are not by customers but people selling used anvils for exorbitant prices. I posted a note on Travis's Anvil page and he went crazy saying you can't make anvils out of h13 and blocked me which is fine by me. I appreciate everyone's guidance when I started doing this six months ago and you'll never hear me say a bad thing about anyone's products ever. Have a great day and a terrific weekend, cheers! Greg Edited by Mod 44 for language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Cheers, Greg. Keep up the good work — at least long enough for me to save 180,000 pennies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Howdy Greg! Really sorry he’s been grieving you, you seem like a very stand up business man producing a much desired product using great materials and quality manufacturing methods. Hopefully he doesn’t now head after the Emerson’s, Jymm Hoffman, and Steve at Incandescent, or any other current quality US makers. The knucklehead PMd me and said essentially I’m an idiot because you (Holland) does make an H13 anvil and I should keep quiet if I don’t know what I’m speaking of. I guess his reading comprehension is worse than his ability to ask questions. I had stated, as can be read in above posts, that there are no production wrought H13 anvils (as in forged to shape), only ones that are cast. BTW what would approx shipping costs be on your 190 and 250 to San Jose, CA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Hi Greg from Holland Anvils ... I am soo glad that another modern manufacturer of quality anvils is swelling the numbers of good quality anvils that bust the myth of "Old is better than new" There is so much busted and abused ex anvils, sold at extortive prices that a new anvil of high quality is welcome anytime and anywhere. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Jymm Hoffman was casting anvils in H13 quite some time ago, over a decade IIRC; I've never heard a complaint about them (save that I could not afford one...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 TP, I love all three of Jymms patterns, except the lack of that South German fillet transition between the horn and face of his two continental patterns. I think his colonial is probably the stoutest 110 anvil you could design while still including a horn and thru hardy hole (as opposed to the L shaped French hardy hole). Anyways, H13 is really tough shock resistant steel. Withought using maraging or PM materials perhaps only S2or S5 beats it at mid 50’s hardness. It’s pricey tho as you know, seems 9250 would would be an awesome steel that’s readily available if one wasn’t specifically looking for an air hardening alloy. It seems that the economy for some of these makers comes from using materials already being poured in large qty for other projects in either their shop or their subcontractors.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timber Ridge Forge Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Just my .2 cents. I have talked to Greg beforehand on Facebook and seems like a stand up guy. As someone who buys and sells used anvils(helps pay for my dying dogs medical bills). I have found him to be honest in regards to his anvils. I am sure it’s not the place but I have noticed a few used anvils seller (SG) who attempted too prop up the market with false information and inflated prices I am glad to new anvil makers making sure that doesn’t happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundryguy Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 On 7/22/2018 at 1:25 AM, stevomiller said: Howdy Greg! Really sorry he’s been grieving you, you see.........BTW what would approx shipping costs be on your 190 and 250 to San Jose, CA? Hey Steve, I get a very good rate out to the Bay area on R&L carriers. I could get an anvil out to you for $200 in that weight range. I thought it would be more. If the Bridge School Concerts were still going on in Mountain View I would be out there in September. Have a great day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundryguy Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 To all. Thanks again for the support and kind words. The person in question started in about TFS anvils on my Holland Anvil facebook page then started saying I can not cast H13 so I took his comments down and he got upset. I was not up for defending myself or teaching a foundry 101 class to someone that can not listen. My page is not a forum, its just there to show off my goods and do some short chats. Some folks talk about other manufacturers and that is if fine. I do not knock any ones products nor will I, not on here, my page, an email or in person. We are trying to make the best anvil in our ability as metal casters. I have learned its expensive, time consuming and dealing with the public can be overwhelming at times. My son is home from college and drew up a Swage block and cut a pattern last week. It has one large round impression on the back side. We should have some castings made this week in ductile iron. I do not think they justify H13, correct me if I am wrong. It should weigh around 60 lbs. He is going to do a 150 lb with holes in it next. Have a great day! Greg excess image has been cropped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Hi Greg thx for shipping info, that’s very reasonable, and I didn’t realize Neal wasn’t doing those concerts anymore, seems like I heard adverts for them not long ago. As to the stage block looks good. I have a 30-40lb one with similar layout, and I’m sure it’s ductile iron. I’m just guessing but as long as these things have been cast and not forged to shape I’m betting they were some type of cast iron and not steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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