MC Hammer Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Anyone ever forge on a carpenter's hatchet like the one below? What kind of steel is it in general terms? I'd like to reforge it into a spike tomahawk type we see here in the northeast. This would involve drawing out the top hammer section into a long spike. I'd probably try to upset the side with the slit in it to save as much of that material as I can and then grind the remaining bit of the slit flat so I have a smooth side. Then I plan on shaping and drawing out the blade section to the typical shape. Any idea on the quench and heat treat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 As with all mystery metal you wont know until you try. I can tell you that I have gotten the same results enough times that my go to for those projects is 1) water quench 2) draw the whole thing to straw. I temper using drifts in the eye which pretty much guarantees the eye will be drawn back further than the cutting edge by the time straw runs out to the edge which should make it stand up to any kind of impact forces you can generate with a 14" handle. If you want to remove all guess work just scrounge up some known water hardening steel or an alloy like 5160 that will oil harden and be easy to temper. The only advantage to using a hatchet to make a hatchet is the eye is already there but after you punch and drift a couple you will see that it's not a big deal to do. Wrapping and welding isn't too hard either but like I said, I have done what you're asking about. If you want to be double safe you could try oil quenching first but I haven't yet had a factory made head like that crack in water. I don't make hawks out of them but ball peen hammer heads are just a couple of heats away from becoming handy hot cuts. I've done a bunch of those in water quench with names like Kelly, Craftsman, Vaughn, Stanley. I don't know but I would be surprised if the prolific makers used different alloys for all the different striking tools they made. They could have, but I doubt it. A cast steel ball peen Stanley is probably the same alloy as a cast steel Stanley hatchet. edit... cast steel or drop forged as the case may be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 While I appreciate the admins trying to keep the forum organized and clean, deep sixing this post in the ax section will not help my original question which is a general question about steel type, temper and quench of this material. I put it in the general section because I wanted more people to see it. Oh well, thanks Twisted. I'll probably try the oil quench first, file test, and if it's a hard blade I'll just stick with it. If it doesn't adequately harden it I'll go for water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 deep sixed huh ? what makes you think people wont see an axe in the axe section? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 Apologies Steve, no arrogance meant by that comment. As I stated above, my question wasn't about how to make an ax or about an ax question but if anyone knew what steel the popular carpenter's ax was made out of. As you can see, only one person responded here but I'm sure others would have responded where I put it originally. Maybe not. I guess what I am trying to say is that I pretty much place all my posts where I think they belong. I thought this one belonged as a general question. If I'd had any other unknown piece of steel like say a plumber's wrench and asked the same questions it would would have been appropriate for the general category...........well at least I think it would have. At any rate, not worth arguing about so I'll just figure it out for myself. Just thought I could save some time by tapping into experience I didn't have with this material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 you asked and he answered your question, Heat treating unknown steel isn't rocket science, its covered in the HT sticky, heat and cool and test for hardness. Anyone can guess what steel it is, ask the manufacturer or take a guess are the basic options. But you go ahead and keep blaming the location of the axe section for not having lots of different replies if that makes you happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 We try to organize the site with similar subjects in the same section. You want to rework an axe into another shape and then heat treat it for the new purpose. The post was not deep sixed, but moved to another location. No matter where the post is located, the very next reply brings it to the top of the forum when you click on unread content, or when you open a section of the site. This is true for every thread and every post no matter what section it is posted in. To answer your question, use modelling clay and create an az similar to the one you have. Rework the clay into your new shape. If you come up short on material you will be move likely short on steel. If you have too much then you can cut off and throw away what is in excess. Heat treating an unknown steel is YOUR best guess as to what might work. If you want a good heat treat, then start with good steel. Asking an opinion as to what might work is just that an opinion, or a guess. Even if someone worked in the axe factory and made them for years, it does not mean your as came from that production line, or was made from that type of steel. You are back to guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Rather than grinding off the side with the slit, cut it off with an abrasive disk and use the resulting coupon to test your heat treatment methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 JHCC - That's a great idea to take a piece off that side and do some heat treat experiments. I usually think of that with other unknown stocks, but with this ax I think my mind was off to the races thinking about how I was going to reshape it to the style I need to make. You dialed me back to common sense, thank you. Glenn - thank you for a kind reply. I truly thought about where to put the post and wasn't just throwing it in the general area. I actually thought those monitoring the axe threads would be thinking I put it incorrectly in that section. My other thought was these carpenter's and roofer's axes are all over the place as far as availability and I can't be the only smith who has re-purposed one so what I was looking for is for someone to share their experience of that with me in hopes of matching their success or avoiding their failures. I knew it was an unknown steel, but out of the millions of these hatchets out there still floating around at flea markets and garage sales I figured someone here had some experience with them. Learning from other's successes and failures I feel is important. I appreciate your kind help and the kind spirit of your reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I understand your dilemma and then your choice of where to put things. As with google, a single search string only narrows the field. You need to use those results to better define the search string for future searches. If someone were to get one of these axes and search or information, where would they start? A google search for this item would use the words carpenter's hatchet, roofer's axes, or hand ax. We have a section on axes so it was placed there. This would make the topic easily available in a search 6 months or a year from now. I have changed the title of the thread to Steel Carpenter's Hatchet, Roofer's axe, or Hand axe so it will show up in a google search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 It is not a shingling hatchet. (a.k.a. roofing hatchet). It is also not a drywaller's hammer., which I prefer to the former, tool. It is lighter and has a different angle. It is a carpenter's hatchet. Good for hacking things in the shop, or on work sites. Check google for great illustrations I tried to use control c and control v, but that feature has not worked, on this site, for about two weeks. I wanted to put several u.r.l.' s to help the site's ,users but no luck. SLAG. p.s. Does anyone know how to fix my dilemma? I have a diploma on computer klutz & kludging. (the exasperated instructor said that I have a born talent. Was he being snarky?? Any suggestions concerning my problem will be greatly appreciated and acknowledged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 Good idea Glenn. Glad you made the title changes as that makes sense. You know, I'll do the experimenting with this hatched head and bring my results to this thread so others can learn something from it. I'll get around to making my own axes someday, but I thought this would be a way for me to get my feet wet. I have a lot of tools to make in the way of drifts, punches, and hardie tools that are occupying a lot of my forging time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 The 1905 Sears Roebuck catalog has a page of differing hatchets and calls the style with a flat top and an angled blade a "half hatchet". If it bells out on both top and bottom some are called shinglers hatchet. Small rectangular bladed ones were called lathing hatchets and of course the kentish broad hatchet is show too (1908 catalog too) NOTE: cast steel is a MATERIAL, drop forging is a PROCESS and so having a drop forged cast steel item is quite possible. We think of casting to shape nowadays, back then cast steel aka crucible steel was a way of making a higher grade steel by melting blister steel and so getting rid of the ferrous silicates and equalizing the carbon content, Cast steel ingots would then need to be forged to reduce grain size from the casting process. "Steelmaking before Bessemer: vol 1 Blister Steel, vol 2 Crucible steel. Note: how I and many others use these forums is to list the unread ones and just go down the list so a post would have been read no matter WHERE it ended up. (save perhaps for the super secret locked and encrypted moderators' my little pony bottle openers thread...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 Thomas - thank you for the information. I hadn't really considered it could be cast steel that was drop forged. As I forge this, what should I be looking for that would indicate that I have a cast steel or crucible steel hatchet head? I've only pretty much forged know steel. Thanks for explaining how you and others read the forum. I probably should use it that way. That makes sense. I guess my "deep six" comment was unwarranted and a misunderstanding on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 No way to tell without a metallographic analysis and maybe not even with that! It should not make a difference either; save for some folks that like the "old stuff" just for historical reasons---it used to be the high grade stuff; (nowadays we might look for steel refined for aeronautical use...) Now etching of blister steel or shear steel ought to show the heterogeneous nature of it. I have a bunch of those types of hatchets for making bearded hatchets a bit like the Japanese versions by stock removal. One of those "anytime you can find one for US$1 or under", buy it things. Only way to totally deep 6 something here is to annoy the moderators and *many* of us have been under moderation sometime or other here---I was once there for a typo. Not a problem, I guess as I'm still around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 My favorite junk shop guy threw the hatchet in for free because all I found was a nice drift and he didn't want to charge me the $5 minimum just for the drift. So I only paid $5 for a drift, the hatchet head and a couple of wrenches. He's a good guy. There's a nice straight peen hammer there too that I'll pay his price for this week just as a thank you. I try to do that every so often and it works well with him so that when I have to negotiate prices he's more willing. I hope to be around here for a while if the mods will have me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I do the same thing with my scrapyard guy. If he finds something special for me and puts it aside till I show up; I'll buy it at his price to encourage him to continue. I also discuss what I'm buying with him so he knows the sort of things I am most interested in. (Over the Christmas holiday; he had a 50 pound Vulcan for me for $20. I didn't need it but got it and passed it on to a friend who needed a small travel anvil for armour repairs, (not tanks; cuisses, vambraces, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobblergetter Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Personally I would keep that as is and use a ball pien hammer. To forge a spike tomahawk With. I would normalize three times. Then put back in forge with the cutting edge in under burner and get yellow hot then quench.to temper put in vise with edge up and use map gas very slowly torch to heat up edge till a blueish color Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 Gobbler - that's a good suggestion to use a ball peen hammer. If I had a bigger head I'd be game, but since the junk fairy gave me this, I may just try it. It would make a good user just as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 You could also avoid the issue of trying to upset the blade edgewise and just turn it into a handled hot chisel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 JHCC - good idea, but I already have a really nice handled hot chisel. I've been doing some research on these hatchets and they literally can as old as the 17th and 18th century right on up to modern times. I'm guessing mine is from the 20's or 30's, but that style has been used a loooong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Have you been able to find a makers mark? I don't see any pitting so if there is a stamp you should be able to find it. I have examples of the half-hatched marked, Plumb, Stanley, Kelly Tru-Temper, Vaughn, Crafstman, Shepleighs Hardware, and a few with no name but stamped "Spain" Vaughn is still making them in the US and some of the other brands are still around but are now imports which are a pale shadow of what they used to be in terms of quality, The US made Vaughn version is still top notch. That style hatchet was seen on job sites much more often before the widespread use of laminated sheeting. Before plywood and particle board stud walls were wind braced with diagonal strips of 1x4" set flush into the studs and then covered with ship lap siding. Since the wind bracing was being covered the notches didn't have to be very clean and to save time the framers would hack the pockets into the studs with those hatchets giving rise to the somewhat derogatory term, "you really did a hatchet job on that" meaning ill fitting or imprecise joinery resembling the old wind brace pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I often wondered where that saying came from, thanks learned something new just now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I learned one yesterday reading the book on andirons I recently got. I had always called the hooks that had a taper to pound into a a beam "jam hooks" turns out they are Jamb Hooks and that Jamb was used for more than just door jambs but also for windows and fireplaces. Jamb hooks were used to hold fireplace tools and were inserted into the fireplace jambs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 Twisted - When I cleaned up mine I found no maker's mark at all. It rings like a bell so I plan on spark testing it this weekend. I suspect it is made from quality steel. If I found Plumb on it I was going to keep it as is because I know it has value. I like the reference to "hatchet job". I sort of collect eccentric facts like that and store them until just the wrong moment and then bore everyone with them Thomas - interesing on the Jamb hooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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