Travo Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Hello all! I am just starting out with the forging experience and I am trying to design my first forge from a propane tank. I have made a drawing and attached it. I would like all the critiquing everyone can stand. It will have 2 inches of isowool that will be sprayed with rigidizer followed by Kast O Lite, then Metricote. I am curious about my burner positions. they will be offset from TDC at 20 degrees. I will be making the Frosty design burners and running 2 of them at 3/4 inch diameter. I will leave it at that for now. Let me know what you think and I can change the design and re-post. Propane tank forge REV 0.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Welcome to IFI. Have you read this post yet? https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53873-read-this-first/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 I have now. The Google search tip is nice. I was trying to use the search at the top and was having marginal success. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Travo Very nice drafting work. or cad if that is what it is. built a forge from a portable air tank. not an expert by any means but did learn from my build and exchanging posts with the resident experts here. My forge if the air is still, occasionally will re-ingest the dragon's breath and falter. This I think is in large part due to the burner intake being straight up (12:00 O'CLOCK_. If I were to build it again, I'd tilt the burner (burners in your case) over to about the 1:30 or 2:00 o'clock position. not a big problem as I usually run a big furnace blower in the shop to move the air around with windows and garage roll ups open. my initial build had the front work opening about the size of yours. I found I could not get my arm into the forge through the opening to slather on refractory. I'd make sure the front opening was big enough to get your arm in so you can reach the whole interior. I don't know about the openings where you have designed boxes that are essentially tunnels moving the opening a bit futher from the body of the forge. I have had good luck with a porch welded to the body and just sitting hard bricks on as doors that I can move with no restrictions to change the opening size. I put a hinge on the front and a latch on the other side. not to routinely open it, but to make future work easier. That's my two cents. I think you are going to make a great forge. Wasted excessive spaces removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. I prefer xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wayne Coe directions sending people off site removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 On 7/15/2018 at 11:48 PM, MotoMike said: Travo Very nice drafting work. or cad if that is what it is. ....... I think you are going to make a great forge. I will modify the drawing and make the front opening large enough for my arm to go through and possibly try to draw some hinges to open the front. This was an oversight on my part. Thanks for the wisdom. The boxes on each end are just so the fire bricks have something to "seal' against. I thought this would be better than a round opening. So are you saying the position of the burners are OK, but the need to come in at an angle? It shows it better on the second page of the drawing. It is hard to find a good drawing of a forge for beginners. I figured if I could dial in a drawing it would make it easier for future beginner Smiths. I will also try to add the drawing of the Frosty "T" burners for a finished product. Thanks for all the help! Wayne, I have been looking at your site and really like it. I have already been in contact with you via email (yesterday) about ordering the Kast-O-Lite and Metricote. Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Upon re-reading my post I see that I said tilt the burners, I guess that is not really what I meant. in addition to being tilted to about 1:30 or 2:00 I would install the burner mounts at 1:30 or 2:00 as well. Your design looks like you've considered creating a nice swirl inside the forge. I failed to do that. On my next build I'll incorporate that feature. In a nutshell the goal is to move the intakes off to the side a bit so that the DB which because it is so hot will tend to rise quickly, won't be passing right by the intakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Cut the burner port opening(s) at 1:30 to 2:00. Then, grind or recut the opening(s) slightly ovoid to allow the burner flames to impinge on the floor close to its near end, so that the flames do not impinge on heating material in the center of the floor, but still swirl around the forge. It only calls for minor reshaping of the burner port openings to accomplish this end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: Cut the burner port opening(s) at 1:30 to 2:00. Then, grind or recut the opening(s) slightly ovoid to allow the burner flames to impinge on the floor close to its near end, so that the flames do not impinge on heating material in the center of the floor, but still swirl around the forge. It only calls for minor reshaping of the burner port openings to accomplish this end. So are you saying using this photo I would need to angle the burner tubes so the flame shoots to the left slightly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 kind of like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 No; your openings should work fine. I could not get my computer to bring up your drawing to begin with. Now that I can it, they look right. BTY, a single centrally located 3/4" burner is usual. Two burners call for dropping their sizes down to 1/2". Otherwise, you must drop the fuel pressure way down into the burner's turn-down range. Also, your drawing seems to show a back opening as large as the front exhaust opening; that makes no sense, unless you plan to have both openings being used to heat work pieces at the same time. Small pass-through openings, for the occasional long item, are the usual design in forges that even have back openings at all. The position and angle of the burner port(s) in your second drawing is fine too. Remember to keep them enough larger than the burners to allow you to adjust burner aiming within the port by manipulating six thumb screws in two rows of three each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 Thanks Mikey! I will try it with a single burner first. I can always relocate later if need be. Sorry for clogging up the thread with all these drawings, but it is easier for me to describe what I am talking about. I hope that once the drawing is final, I could post it somewhere for other's new to the craft could find. I can add a parts list to it also. The front opening is 6x6 with a shelf to set the fire bricks on. The back is 4" tall and 6" wide with a shelf to support fire bricks to close it off. The frame around the openings is to help seal against the fire bricks. Here is a drawing showing the positioning of the "T" burner installed. This is what i was thinking on the burner depth to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Welcome aboard, glad to have you. Don't sweat posting drawings in a discussion like this, it makes things clearer and faster, worth a thousand words and all that. I much prefer drawings over photos when illustrating descriptions, you only need to include things that count in a drawing. Photos get cluttered with all sorts of unimportant junk. Looks like a good plan for a forge. Mike will keep you on the right track. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Quote That looks great Travo. I know what you mean about the boxes being a better mating surface for the bricks to sit against. My thoughts were that you can't close it off all the way anyway as the burner needs air. with my tank even though the ends are convex I can easily position them tight enough to starve the combustion. I don't like that unprotected metal always being hit with that heat. I notice that your drawing with the burner installed shows the flare up in the burner mount. Don't know if that is intentional or not. I have my flare tip about 1/2 inch up in the wool. with it as shown, It might be tough to get your two rows of mounting bolts enough room to grip the burner pipe. I think you want them at least an inch separated vertically so that they have good solid strength against the burner pipe moving. also I think being separated vertically by at least an inch gives you better aiming ability by adjusting those bolts. I'm really looking forward to seeing your build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 You have a good point about the bare metal. I was not thinking of that. So I will modify the drawing to delete the frames around the opening. I will still leave the bottom ones to sit fire bricks on. I also changed the rear opening to 6 inches long x 3 inches high. Do you feel this is still to large? i was thinking that it could be closed most of the way (if need be) with fire brick and rigidized isowool. The flare is just a starting point in the drawing. I believe the flare can actually be moved down the burner pipe also. I am using Fusion 360 3D design software to model it. It is free for hobbyists. I will draw the 2 rows of bolts in the burner tube also then repost and get some opinions. I almost have everything to start making it. Can's Wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Here it is with the mods. I removed the bare metal around the openings and also tapped holes in the burner tube and installed 6 bolts, 3 in each row. the two rows are a little over an inch apart. I was not sure if the bottom of the back opening (the smaller one) should be the same elevation as the front. As it stands right now it is not. The floor will be semi-round after the Cast-O-Lite is poured. I am hoping to keep a somewhat round shape to assist with the swirl. I believe the Cast-O-Lite will come close to the bottom of the opening. I may pour it with some lower temp refractory that I already have or add a little more insulation in the bottom, then go over it with the Cast-O-Lite to make sure I have enough. I will see what it looks like as I build it. The drawing is kinda messy. Once I finalize I will clean it up and add the Frosty "T" burner drawing also (already approved by Frosty). Comments and criticisms are appreciated, and thank you all for your help! Propane tank forge REV 4.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 One last question. I bought refrigeration tubing by accident. I have all the fittings for this also. Can I use this as the supply to the burner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Travo said: One last question. I bought refrigeration tubing by accident. I have all the fittings for this also. Can I use this as the supply to the burner? Did you buy a flaring tool and will it work with the frig tubing? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 The comment about the back opening being too large was not mine. I did however make my back opening smaller than the front. I love your drawings. they look to be the best forge I've seen if you bring it to fruition. Burner count. I think the conventional wisdom is that for every 350 cubic inches you need one 3/4 inch burner. so calculate your interior volume to decide. Mikey I'm sure is right on that issue. I set mine up so that the floor meets the bottom of the openings front and back. makes sliding things through the back easy. Don't know what the wisdom is here. I'm interested in others thoughts on the porch height. I've got mine all level, front porch, forge floor, back porch. I've considered that it might be nice to have the front porch about a quarter lower than the floor. then when I drag work to the opening, it might make grabbing with tongs easier. Don't know about refrigeration tubing. I used 1/8 inch tubing long enough to get the hose junction clear of the forge body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 14 hours ago, Frosty said: Did you buy a flaring tool and will it work with the frig tubing? Frosty The Lucky. Yes I have it all. It looks like the only difference is the ID is a touch smaller. I have the burner up and running. Now to figure out how to tune it using Your directions. Motomike Thanks for the praises on the drawings. When they are complete it will be numerous pages with lots of detail hopefully. As for the burners, I currently have on built with material for a second if need be. I am guessing close to 345 cu in after it is built. Depends on how thick the forge floor is. I believe I will insulate, then calculate volume, then install burner tube(s). I think this will keep me from doing any mods to the burner locations later. You do have a good idea about the porch being lower than the forge opening. I will think about that. I do not see what it could hurt. If all else fails and u do not like it low, I could just put another plate on top of it. First step will be to cut the propane tank apart though. I already have part of the front cut out, but to insulate I am going to cut the end off then weld back on when I finish insulating both ends and the middle (seen this on youtube). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 Well here is what I am calling the final design. I did move the back vent door and vent platform down even with where the floor will be. it is also even with the front of the forge. Feel free to use this drawing at your leisure. Final propane tank forge Drawing v1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Looks good enough to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 The first picture was just after I built it. I believe the flame is looking better now (at least I think it is). At least outside the forge. This is at a very low pressure.Saturday. 0 to 10 lb regulator turned way down. I know everyone is worried, but I will not be running off of a 10 lb regulator. My 0 to 30 lb should be here saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 Here is a short video after it has been running for a while. This is with a 0 to 10 lb regulator full open. 20180719_191936.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travo Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 One last question. Should I cast the Cast-O-Lite on the insulation up inside the burner tube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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