Why does size matter?

[Marc1]

Actually I have a couple of run of the mill PW.  280 lb and 480 lb ... They are the right size for what I do, that is all that is required, and a good steady tripod. Have a couple of 40Kg farrier anvils i hardly ever use because they are too small ... and a little Kohlswa kid size for the very small stuff. I have posted a photo further up. Was told my tripod is too small though

It seems that size matters after all

[anvil]

Too small!  

I'm sold on a wood stump firmly buried a few feet into the ground. 

Here's my favorite. It's in a small short lived shop. It was in my original shop and pulled it up and moved it once. No matter what, it's far easier to move a "too small" stand than a stump buried in the ground.

The cool part is that the stump was too small to completely hold my anvil(255 Trenton).

So I used my Alaskan Mill and made three cuts, reversed them and bolted it together with hand forged fasteners. You can see the stump with the"wings" that gave me surface area for the anvil. 

Also no mechanical joinery from anvil to stump. I inset the anvil into the stump deep enough to add  1"+ of fine sand. The fit is close and snug, then the swelling of the wood makes a very tight fit. No movement. The sand makes leveling a snap, deadens the sound and, danged physics, gives me max surface contact between anvil and stump. 

You can remove the anvil and rotate it 180*, but I finally have enough experience that I only need work from one side of my anvil. ;).  So I do not swop ends. Besides the front and back are not mirror images and I wanted a snug fit wood sides to anvil.

This is my primary anvil. I refaced it years ago with 7018. It held up for 20 some years, but needs to be redone. I now know of a better rebuild system, and will use it the next time.

I have a few others, they seem to find d us if we stay in one place long enough.

I have two 124#. One a pw and one Trenton. And a 184# pw with some special history to me.

The "j" bolts were for the stone walls for dream shop #1. They attached to the rebar and secured the first log course to my "hand forged" stone walls.

[Marc1]

Nice stand. Yes, sand base works. A box full of sand works too. The reason for building my "too small" tripod was to be able to change the position of the anvil outside the workshop.

Those logs bolted together are not going anywhere fast. 

I can't figure out that photo of your anvil, there is something on top of it?

Looking forward to see your new hand forged workshop. Remember to make it BIG ! 

[anvil]

I saw that too,, and no clue. Prolly some blacksmith good luck charm.  

[Glenn]

On 7/19/2018 at 1:29 PM, anvil said:

For me, it's not the rote memory of these formulas that's important. Keep them in a notebook, or know where the danged book is when you need it. It's the application of this "book larnin'" combined with the tools of our craft that makes an unstoppable combination in the real world.

You can tell which formulas in my notebook are referred to most by the burn marks on the pages.

[jlpservicesinc]

Mine were in a small 3 ring binder..   When I quit blacksmithing the binder got used for other things and the notebook with the formulas I pulled from other sources got thrown out..

The only formula i use on a more regular basis are rings to dimension..   When I need the weight of a smaller item like a thumblatch reproduction or a hinge or fork or really any item up to hand forging size I just put it on a scale and weigh it.. much faster than a formula..  

[anvil]

19 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

When I need the weight of a smaller item like a thumblatch reproduction or a hinge or fork or really any item up to hand forging size I just put it on a scale and weigh it.. much faster than a formula..  

A simple example of a spatula.

How do match this by weighing the whole spatula? Do you cut off the spatula and weigh it?how bout the tapered shaft? Or the finial?

Jen, I showed you the bottom two pics a while ago. I included a write-up to explain my layout. Your response was,, "nice design" and "you rolled the barrels".  NO coment on layout.

That's ok, like you said somewhere in another post concerning "if you aren't ready for it,,,"

I'm posting this for those who ask how can you make a living in this craft, it's so time consuming, or whatever 

I cant stress enoufh both proper layout and understanding equivalent masses.  

From the simple to the sublime, these two skills will save you much time, and simply said, that saved time is money in your pocket.

And they are really not that difficult to understand. 

[iron woodrow]

Calculating volumes is how i do my forging. Thats how i was able to work out the forging of my replica one piece solid backbone velocipedes, down to the cubic mm. Initial billet size 75×25×600

[anvil]

18 hours ago, iron woodrow said:

Calculating volumes is how i do my forging

Excellent example!

All Blacksmiths get to the point of using equivalent t masses or calculating volumes. And there are a number of ways to do it.

Trial and error leads to "experience". A simple example is to make a 1/2"x1"x6" foot on the end of a 1" bar. Nothing simpler.

Trial and error means guessing how much" is needed, and like Goldilocks, one is too short, the next is too long, and the third is just right. Now you have experience! And no need of math,,,

U til the next one. Sheesh, now I want the same from 3/4" square! And 3/4" wide.

Trial and error again will work.

 It what do you do when it gets complex? Well, you can turn it down, spend a lifetime or days of trial and error gaining the needed experience, or learn a few simple math concepts and spend a few hours drawing  your dream and figguri g out equivalent masses. 

Considering one of the most often asked questions about our craft is "it takes too much time! I can't compete!".

Seems a little math will put you on track for actually making a profit.

[jlpservicesinc]

On 7/23/2018 at 2:45 PM, anvil said:

 

On 7/23/2018 at 2:45 PM, anvil said:

A simple example of a spatula.

How do match this by weighing the whole spatula? Do you cut off the spatula and weigh it?how bout the tapered shaft? Or the finial?

Jen, I showed you the bottom two pics a while ago. I included a write-up to explain my layout. Your response was,, "nice design" and "you rolled the barrels".  NO coment on layout.

That's ok, like you said somewhere in another post concerning "if you aren't ready for it,,,"

I'm posting this for those who ask how can you make a living in this craft, it's so time consuming, or whatever 

I cant stress enoufh both proper layout and understanding equivalent masses.  

From the simple to the sublime, these two skills will save you much time, and simply said, that saved time is money in your pocket.

And they are really not that difficult to understand. 

First I will apologize to all that this doesn't concern and it's going to be long.. I've given this much thought and frankly I lack the words to express "It". 

  Anvil (Lee) and I have had a few conversations via PM which deteriorate sadly into nothing,..  He has shown me wonderful pictures of work that he supposedly did..  Very nice wrought iron work..   He (Lee ) is a nice guy and reached out with comments about the videos I had produced and He offered to give me some insight into gaining more hammer prowess..   And he also introduced me to Francis Whitakers cookbook..  Thanks you for that Lee..       

I'm not a word smith, nor a person who uses words to fence with others using words..  If this is the case.. I don't have time for that..   

I work very straight forwards with..   "How do you do this'?    This is how it is done..  Or Here, let me show you..   If there is a question I don't ask the person a question as the answer to their question..   This is what ended up happening and it's happening here as well...      I gave up..     I find it to be to daunting to be worth it.. 

With this said...   I don't think like anybody else.. Nor do I care to..  30 years ago,  as I explained early it was all about formulas and oh, look how smart I am.. Now I don't care.. I don't need to impress my friends..   When I decided to make the "How to video"  and add my opinion to any topic on this forum It's done with only the regards for the information as I see it, based on my experiences with an in-depth knowledge with forging the types of items I forged and forge today..   Blah, blah, blah... 

What a person takes away from it or doesn't is up to them..   It was a struggle as to whether or not creating content as what I promote is not in favor with the outspoken and it's the outspoken here and everywhere that turn the wheels and have the most influence...     

At some point it takes to long  writing wise to clarify these questions with questions and it gets  " created into a chess match with words"  which others find pleasure in..  This just wastes my time..    If  you want  to see what I can really do with forge, anvil and hammer,  see me at a blacksmithing meet or demo..  It doesn't get any simpler than that as well..  I have no problem being asked how to make something and then just making it.. 

So I will address your statement of: ( Jen, I showed you the bottom two pics a while ago. I included a write-up to explain my layout. Your response was,, "nice design" and "you rolled the barrels".  NO coment on layout. )I didn't know you needed a comment on the layout.. If you needed a comment the conversation goes kinda like this..   
(What you think of the hinges???        Also what do you think of the layout of the hinges.   This is what  I do to get the measurements... )     I can not read your mind nor do I try to jump to conclusions.. Besides that as I have all ready explained I don't " DO"  abstract conversation...       

 The hinges and the spatula are not my particular style but nice forgings just the same..  It was the hinge eyes I was interested in as  "Hinge eyes" are something I am always on the look out for.. Guess you didnt' know that..  I really enjoy seeing a well forged hinge barrel especially if it's welded. ..  Wrapped hinges again.. Eh.. But a nice welded hinge barrel..  Well that is nice to see.. 

So,  My lack of input towards your layout had nothing to do with your skill set or showing it to me.. Again, it's something I had done many times and not new.. 

As I have all ready stated multiple times which you refuse to address:  

Figuring out via formula to find the given mass or volume for a forging isn't a "New skill to me"..  That was a basic skill back in my 20's...   So dismissing what you really wanted me to be acting over is just run of the mill Forge work.. 

The  " AWE" factor just isn't there for me on hinge layout..   Again, been there and done that.. 

(A simple example of a spatula.

How do match this by weighing the whole spatula? Do you cut off the spatula and weigh it?how bout the tapered shaft? Or the finial?)

I don't know how to address your comments on the spatula and it's taken me this long to respond because of the things all ready mentioned.

I'll assume you really don't know and have never forged anything so will answer your question though I know it was sarcastic in nature:

Again,   for the weight of it and cutting it in half.. I know this is another Question which you really don't want an answer to. so it's really more of a sarcastic remark than a question..    So, If you need to cut the spatula in half to get the weight for you to be able to forge it. Than I guess that is what you will need to do..   

Personally, I would weigh it,, Then start with a piece of metal that will offer me the width I need with the spatula part forged to the correct size.. Once this is done.. The handle will have the correct amount of material all ready in place for all the shaft, hand and finial..  Simple and forged to dimension..  

If you want exact  starting metal size with  the bar punched for where things will be..   This is all on you.. As I have no interest in doing that kind of thing for a spatula.. Why because I don't need to, to get to the required exact specs..   I would eye ball it and just forge it out..  


Some people have different skill sets and some are more talented than others in certain areas..  As a pro  I could look at something and know instantly what size stock to use without measuring anything and yes it would be forged to dimension..    Today.. Nope,  I can come close just by eye but now it takes me awhile to think about it and process how many inches can I get from X and Y and Z.  Measuring things makes it a whole bunch easier.. 

 

So yes I do measure things more to be a certain size as I can't figure out as quickly in my head that there are  8, 1/8" in an inch and lay this out in metal..   I used to be able to see it as clear in my mind as this computer I am typing on.. 


If you need more than weighing the metal to get a starting size,   to make something than I suggest that is what you do.. But weighing something will give you a starting figure to work with so you can do it simply and quickly..  

you don't agree.. Oh well, didn't cost anything.  Since you guys love formulas:

One cubic inch of steel weighs 0.283 pounds..  So a 1" sq piece of steel 1ft long weighs (1"X1"X12 X 0.283)  3.396 lbs, a stocking list from a steel supplier will give you the weight per foot for a given bar size..  It's pretty easy from there.. Or maybe it isn't for others..  Maybe you can't see it?  So maybe you need or do best with getting everything straight before you start..   This is ok..   Do what you must to get to the finished product..  

Once you know the basics of forging one can envision what is needed for a starting stock to get to the completed item with little fan fair.. Especially if you have made a few hundreds with a few hundred variations.. 

  If not in the "Know" because of a lack of experience and you feel so inclined, there are books that will give you the formulas and maybe Anvil will even supply it on a separate thread.. 

If one is making " Copies" of parts for other things that can not be weighed on a scale this becomes a different animal all together and then it really becomes a matter of measuring the pieces and then averaging and finally figuring out where to mark it for a given size or volume of stock to get to the desired sizing and length..  Which is what you showed in your drawing/ layout which is very important if you need it.. 


All of this blacksmithing stuff  " Is not brain surgery"..   And again if you guys want to keep going on about  " Oh, well I do this and you do that.   Or just expressing your brain muscle so be it..  

I find the back and forth banter, to be useless.. Back 30 years ago, I would have jumped on the band wagon with you  shouting formulas for all to hear..  it was much more  important back then for what I did vs  " Now"..    And I don't want to sound dirogitory, negative, or sarcastic, but if you are really trying to teach something to someone or a group.. This isn't the way to do it.. 

As I have said,    Don't answer a question with a question.. or as a question so you can play with it to ask another question..  If a question is asked simply answer it..   Be a teacher the student needs not the kind of teacher you feel they need..  There is a very large difference.. 

I don't know you.. And you don't know me. The only difference is I have put out information and videos because I wanted to share it in a way that may or may not help someone..   I sent you the phone mount so you could make a video and show me your hammer method with increased prowess and join the revolution.. LOL..   

If you really want to get "Your point across with your method"  Start a thread and explain your method for all to see.. 

While I value the work you have shown It really doesn't tell me via still pictures what kind of smith you are..     Someone can make a really beautiful forged knife, but in reality the person just forged out the tang and ground the rest.. This is an extreme example, and is on par with the comment about splitting the spatula.. 

If it continues with a Question with a question of non sense I won't be responding back to this thread..  

Coming from as skilled arenas as both you (Anvil) and Marc1 and Ironwoodrow are supposed to be it was funny that after the fact of me asking or commenting on differences on anvil sizes and both touting formulas you both finally came forth to say you own and use larger anvils than the 120 somethings..  

Yes I could go back and quote it.. but no need..  

If you really want to show your prowess both with formulas, and forging to dimensions than start a thread dedicated to it with pictures and explain what you are doing and why..   Or better yet a combination of pictures, diagrams and videos..    Again, It's not something i need  but since these seem to be important to you, I"m sure it would help others since one works in "inches" and the other in the metric system..   

Iron Woodrow,, That is cool..  What's it like to ride? What was your starting stock size? 


 

Sullivan metals Stock_LIST.pdf

[anvil]

Jen, alas I will not take your advice. I will post new when appropriate, and will add to other posts as I see fit, and remain civil. Maybe a bit of humor but always civil.  I have never  been disrespectful to you, nor said where you should post or Indicate what or how you should answer. I have on a number.ber of occasions disagreed with your techniques and ideas concerning g blacksmithing. This post is an example. You did not start this post, another did. You made some statement  that I felt  new to blacksmithing folks needed at the very least, another view. Isn't that the real purpose of these forums?

I will support your idea of me. I am, and gladly accept being  just another digital creation on the net. So, what I say may add to some, or it may be meaningless to others. If my disagreeing with your statements and some techniques upsets you, then, well, deal with it. I just don't know what else to say.

This is a good thread with some good Info. Hopefully admin wont close it just because you are upset at responses that seem to offend you.  But hey, 

Lol, as to your being  a wordsmith, yer posts are usually pretty long! 

 

 

[iron woodrow]

Jen, the starting stock size was 75×25×600 (millimetres) They were called boneshakers for a reason!. Once complete they will have timber cart wheels with steel tyres instead of the plywood display wheels on it now.

The calculation of volume is exactly the same in metric and imperial, as long as you dont mix anything up (ie: mm with m, or ' with ".)

That said, it is far more favourable to use decimal, since dividing or multiplying fractions by pi is a brain melter, which i guess is why users of the imperial system usually dismiss formulas as hocus pocus (too hard)

Your method of using weights from lengths in stock catalogues is pretty much the same, with the exception of tapered sections, and i was told of the weighing technique by the boss when i did my apprenticeship.

While i see your the point of your previous posts, i still believe that in a forum such as this, the positives of pointing out the multitude of ways to skin a cat far outweigh the negatives.

This trade draws from so many different types of people with more backgrounds than one can poke a pointy stick at, and some are learners through trial and error, whereas others prefer theory. It is important to point out that there is no one way to be a master of this trade.

I learned when training apprentices that there is no fix all way to teach, and some loved calculating volumes, while some loved wasting the bosses time, stock and money by not taking on simple mathematics and just going for it.

Unless you have years of experience through working out how much  90mm round it takes to make a 25mm square 500mm long, or have someone to give you a table of volumes, then how hard is it to string a few numbers together?

500× (25×25) = 312500

The area of 90mm round is determined by using pi×(r×r) 

3.14×(45×45) =6358.5

312500÷6358.5= 49.14 (round up to 50 for scale loss)

50mm of 90mm round will give 500mm of 25 square.

This was not intended as a lecture to anyone in particular, but since examples were called for I thought why not (smileyface)

I hope someone finds this thread one day and learns something from us, since each one has a different style!

[jlpservicesinc]

On 7/24/2018 at 4:30 PM, anvil said:

Jen, alas I will not take your advice. I will post new when appropriate, and will add to other posts as I see fit, and remain civil. Maybe a bit of humor but always civil.  I have never  been disrespectful to you, nor said where you should post or Indicate what or how you should answer. I have on a number.ber of occasions disagreed with your techniques and ideas concerning g blacksmithing. This post is an example. You did not start this post, another did. You made some statement  that I felt  new to blacksmithing folks needed at the very least, another view. Isn't that the real purpose of these forums?

I will support your idea of me. I am, and gladly accept being  just another digital creation on the net. So, what I say may add to some, or it may be meaningless to others. If my disagreeing with your statements and some techniques upsets you, then, well, deal with it. I just don't know what else to say.

This is a good thread with some good Info. Hopefully admin wont close it just because you are upset at responses that seem to offend you.  But hey, 

Lol, as to your being  a wordsmith, yer posts are usually pretty long! 

If I offended you or made you feel un easy. I am sorry..   I have much respect for the work you have shown and also have much respect for your opinion.. 

What needs to be understood.. Is I have a disability with word play..  And I also can't understand words without full context or sentences that are lacking detailed info.. (there is no body language to read, or facial expressions to help with figuring it out)

If someone comes over and tells a joke.. I usually don't know it's a joke  unless it's started out:   Wanna hear a joke.. 

As an example:   When I was in VA at the ABANA conference I had worked with a few people and forged a few things, did the usual conference thing..  Next day Mark Aspery walks up and said with a smile on his face:   So, I heard from someone you were interested in teaching or demoing a the 2020 conference..  

Immediately I responded:  Who said that!!!!!  LOL.. Now it's funny, but at the time.. It wasn't funny to me..      The expression on his face changed and then I understood that I was being asked..    

Anyhow, I"m about as socially graceful as a pumpkin.. I"m like a Wankel engine..    So,  I miss ques all the time and without having more information it really becomes a problem for me.. 

For some reason I think you and i would do great working side by side, but there is a language problem that I just don't know how to figure out.. Kind of like white noise on the TV and my radar gets all mixed up.. 

As to word smith:   Coming here  has forced me to be more pin point with the information and explanations to what I am sharing.. I used to be much more globalized and again the questions  as to the spatula being cut in half makes me have to be even more wordy as I really have a problem with " What I am writing as being misconstrued" 

It still happens and it's actually the people who are well versed in forging or masters or advanced smiths that do the calling out the most..  I'm not sure if the simple stuff is useful or not because usually when it gets this heavy.. Only the heavy weights stick around.. 

I try simple and this just leads to more complexity and really I dislike complexity..   

And again.. I believe the items you have forged are yours and I like all the photos I have seen..     Me saying I have never seen you work is not an afront to your abilities.. 

Seeing something or someone in action is for me is key to learning it..  Seeing something done by someone else also allows for me to decide whether it has merit or not..    
I am willing to give up anything and everything I have learned in smithing if there is a better way.. I am not attached to any of it..   Until someone comes along and can show me a better way. Sadly or gladly what I do works for myself at this moment in time.. 

Again, if I hurt you feelings I am very sorry.. Was not my intentions..  

 

On 7/24/2018 at 7:50 PM, iron woodrow said:

Your method of using weights from lengths in stock catalogues is pretty much the same, with the exception of tapered sections, and i was told of the weighing technique by the boss when i did my apprenticeship.

While i see your the point of your previous posts, i still believe that in a forum such as this, the positives of pointing out the multitude of ways to skin a cat far outweigh the negatives.

This trade draws from so many different types of people with more backgrounds than one can poke a pointy stick at, and some are learners through trial and error, whereas others prefer theory. It is important to point out that there is no one way to be a master of this trade.

I agree totally with formulas and what you posted..      The ability here to share information freely without the risk of feeling like one is being attacked for that information or question becomes key..  

I am not the easiest person to understand and I try to share at both the simple and complex levels...      I'm guilty of sometimes adding in information that is not on par with what information is important to the person sharing it.. This can create a rift.. 

Because in my younger days I loved math and science and had an affinity for book learning I realized that if I could see the math play out in a scientific way it was both fun and I learned it even more fully.. 

Thus I try to keep things simple and in some ways easy experiments for someone to try..  Big fan of getting the hands dirty or digging in.. 

I'm not here to squish what people want to share but rather add to it, with the freedom to question and explore.. 

Again i would suggest that a thread on :Figuring out metal volume using measurements,  Would be a handy sticky.. 

Did you boss give you the  " Root mean" of a taper formula?  Big end, little end, length, average.. Square stock,,  Pi round stock? 

[Marc1]

Interesting and predictable.

Someone asks the question "Why does size [of anvil] matters"

After some attempts by others I posted a few reasons and supported my answer with some basic formulas.

For my efforts I was called smarty pants by elevation and the idea of expressing concepts in formulas disregarded as a waste of time. 

Don't get me wrong, it takes much more than that to rise one of my eyebrows, but you seem intent to hammer your numerous point across with a large number of words and like to explain in much detail what is your position. A bit more care in how you refer to others is probably a good idea. I would never say about a third person that he or she is "supposed" to have done something, when he stated he did. 

As for the quote below, I have no idea where that belongs. More 'supposed skilled' or words to that effect ... and "touting formulas" ?  ...  Why the aggression? 

And what relevance does it have, the weight of the anvils I use? I don't present myself as an example for anyone.

The whole point of the original question is to understand how the mass of an anvil works in relation to work and hammer weight. Nothing else. I don't write nor post to show off. I made it clear that a small anvil is useful for small work, a bigger for bigger work. Not ...  that bigger is better, and not that a smaller anvil is useless. 

If anything you disappoint me greatly.

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Coming from as skilled arenas as both you (Anvil) and Marc1 and Ironwoodrow are supposed to be it was funny that after the fact of me asking or commenting on differences on anvil sizes and both touting formulas you both finally came forth to say you own and use larger anvils than the 120 somethings..  

 

[iron woodrow]

I got used to disappointment rather early on, now i have progressed to a higher level of "meh"

 

[jlpservicesinc]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:51 AM, Marc1 said:

Interesting and predictable.

Someone asks the question "Why does size [of anvil] matters"

After some attempts by others I posted a few reasons and supported my answer with some basic formulas.

For my efforts I was called smarty pants by elevation and the idea of expressing concepts in formulas disregarded as a waste of time. 

Don't get me wrong, it takes much more than that to rise one of my eyebrows, but you seem intent to hammer your numerous point across with a large number of words and like to explain in much detail what is your position. A bit more care in how you refer to others is probably a good idea. I would never say about a third person that he or she is "supposed" to have done something, when he stated he did. 

As for the quote below, I have no idea where that belongs. More 'supposed skilled' or words to that effect ... and "touting formulas" ?  ...  Why the aggression? 

And what relevance does it have, the weight of the anvils I use? I don't present myself as an example for anyone.

The whole point of the original question is to understand how the mass of an anvil works in relation to work and hammer weight. Nothing else. I don't write nor post to show off. I made it clear that a small anvil is useful for small work, a bigger for bigger work. Not ...  that bigger is better, and not that a smaller anvil is useless. 

If anything you disappoint me greatly.

The Thread is " Why does size matter"..  

See so here we go..     Where your still not seeing it..   As I have stated pretty much with each response..    

I am all for formulas.. I am for understanding formulas and promoting formulas..    Answering a question with a question does little to help understanding.. 

The fact that  " All this is free"   It's by choice that we come here and share or read or socialize...   

The Door should remain open for discussion on a/the topic..   Even if one feels the topic is as simple as a formula or as in a simple experiment,    shutting another person down that has a question or dismissing a usable teaching tool is frankly " disappointing" ..  

You are into formulas and use them.. That is great..  You shared them to help others knowledge base increase.. That is even greater.. 

And sadly you still see me as attacking your thought or belief system as to what you presented..    That is not the case as all..  If you feel as though I attacked you, for that I'm sorry..  

My point was and still is, that not everybody is going to understand the formulas and there is an easy to to test this in real life again combining theory with feedback.. 

This sharing can be enhanced vs minimized was my point and still is.. 

Again, I think you are still missing the point I made as not everyone is or wants to be an engineering student..   My reference to smarty pants comes from the point that since to you it's a common knowledge, well applied understanding.. It is still a 20/20 vision thing.. Before you could apply it and fully understand it, did it make sense?    Once someone understands something that (light bulb) moment happens and then and only then does it make sense...

But someone in the KNOW can sometimes dismiss others based on their perception of level of knowledge in others..  This is a smarty pants..     

No matter how many times you tell someone  " Here is a formula"  they may never understand it till they also have that  " Light bulb"  or 20/20 vision..   I have found that many people who have an engineering mind dismiss others based on the braininess..     Again I don't know you, but to simply go back to the formula as being the only answer dismisses all after that and then to dismiss other options to go back to the formulas..   this again shuts a door to learning and teaching.. 

Again vision is 20/20 and once someone understands something the vision is enhanced and thus they have learned  " It".. 

Giving is the greatest gift we can give..  Giving of information is the way we make that gift even greater for others and ourselves..  A great teacher will teach the person..  Not the formula..  This was and is my point..

I could be off my rocker as I'm not that smart.. Nor am a social animal.. I do best wanting to left alone as I pointed out I miss information and don't do abstract reasoning well in spoken word or written word..   But if you notice not very many people have been replying other than the 3 of us.. 

This means it's more of a closed group vs a forum to share the information about blacksmithing..  

As I have all ready stated many times..    Formulas are great.. All hail the formula..   

maybe I am the problem..  Maybe..  

[JHCC]

45 minutes ago, iron woodrow said:

I got used to disappointment rather early on, now i have progressed to a higher level of "meh"

The highest and most powerful level of which is, of course, crystal meh. 

[jlpservicesinc]

That's funny..  thanks for that..

[John McPherson]

As for myself, I just bring popcorn, and pull up a comfy seat next to the greasy spot where the dead horse used to be...

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Popcorn... I knew there was something I was craving... thanks it's off to the stove.

[Marc1]

10 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 Where your still not seeing it..   As I have stated pretty much with each response..    

Your lack of insight is astounding. No point replying to this.

The thread is called why does size matter ... and it's not about you.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Watch out for when the atomized horse stuff self combusts!

[anvil]

On 7/24/2018 at 1:14 PM, jlpservicesinc said:

Personally, I would weigh it,, Then start with a piece of metal that will offer me the width I need with the spatula part forged to the correct size.. Once this is done.. The handle will have the correct amount of material all ready in place for all the shaft, hand and finial..  Simple and forged to dimension..  
 

Now we are getting somewhere.

You write very long posts. So flesh it out. There's no way a total beginner could get anything out of that.

Show a beginner your process.

Here's some dimensions, but feel free to make this to your design, just a one piece spatula.

Spatula ~3"x5"x1/8"

Handle and shaft. How you want. And comfortable length for a outside charcoal grill 18"-24" length?

Full taper from say 1"x 3/8" to 1/2"x 1/4" and whatever you choose for length.

As a beginner, I'm interested especially  how you do the  transition(change) from spatula to shaft.

Im also very interested in how you figured your parent(initial) stock.

Meaning "What do you start with and why?".

And "how do you get from the start to the finish? 

Your words.

A good session from you to all in understanding the process. 

Who knows, it might be a good handout for any kind of demo you do anywhere. 

Oh, an exit. 

You have this amazing deja vou that this guy will be back and want a match.

And sure enough, it happens! A year later this dude comes back and wants an exact match! His bud challenged him to a beer drinking burger flipping challenge from Hell and they need matching boy toys!(or girls,)

And that's the process I want to see.

[jlpservicesinc]

On 7/25/2018 at 6:00 PM, Marc1 said:

Your lack of insight is astounding. No point replying to this.

The thread is called why does size matter ... and it's not about you.

It's about all of US (this includes you).. Which is again my point..   

finally someone with some common sense.. LOL

Me too.. I'm also not going to reply anymore..  Tongue sticking out..  Drop mic.. 

On 7/25/2018 at 6:19 PM, anvil said:

Now we are getting somewhere.

You write very long posts. So flesh it out. There's no way a total beginner could get anything out of that.

Show a beginner your process.

Here's some dimensions, but feel free to make this to your design, just a one piece spatula.

Spatula ~3"x5"x1/8"

Handle and shaft. How you want. And comfortable length for a outside charcoal grill 18"-24" length?

Full taper from say 1"x 3/8" to 1/2"x 1/4" and whatever you choose for length.

As a beginner, I'm interested especially  how you do the  transition(change) from spatula to shaft.

Im also very interested in how you figured your parent(initial) stock.

Meaning "What do you start with and why?".

And "how do you get from the start to the finish? 

Your words.

A good session from you to all in understanding the process. 

Who knows, it might be a good handout for any kind of demo you do anywhere. 

Oh, an exit. 

You have this amazing deja vou that this guy will be back and want a match.

And sure enough, it happens! A year later this dude comes back and wants an exact match! His bud challenged him to a beer drinking burger flipping challenge from Hell and they need matching boy toys!(or girls,)

And that's the process I want to see.

Again a question with a question..    Dude this is the reason why I stopped the PM's..     

If your so hot on the topic.. Step up and post a thread with what you would do..  
 

Please stop the questions with a question..   Just answer it all ready..  I know you want to.  So just do it all ready.. 

I'm just gonna say it..  I"m all pooped out on this. Or maybe just pooped.. I'm getting ready for bed. I'm not going to go spend a few hours hunting down my books which I have no idea where they are.. 

my note book as I have all ready mentioned got thrown away and the only formula I use on a regular basis ( once or twice a year) is the formula for ring sizing.. Thats it.. 

So, have at it..  This is all your  " Baby" ..   Dazzle us " Great and powerful Oz".. 

Please teach me your method.. Please..  

[anvil]

A question with a question? Huh?

I just wanted to see your way. Quicker and easier. 

I guess you can't. 

And never an inappropriate word twards you, just technical questions on your technique.