BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Doesn't have to be production to make sense for induction. Less radiant heat, no spark or flames creating fire hazards, no air pollution (smoke,carbon monoxide mercury, etc), no eye burning infrared from a fire, faster, and far less time firing up and shutting down. I have several solid fuel and gas forges, but if I could swing a good sized induction I would do it in a heartbeat, and I am a hobbyist. I just like the convenience of it. And from a teaching standpoint it might be a lot safer option too with less chance of student injuries. I wonder what the cost comparison would be between induction, gas, and coal to make the same parts. As to the scrubber, what do you do with what it collects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calderaforge Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 The first step is to see how much ccr's (Coal combustion residuals) are collected. The main ingredients are fly ash and calcium sulfate. Fly ash is composed of silica and is often used in concrete production. Calcium sulfate is plaster of paris. Depending on the amount of material and the type of coal it could also have small amounts mercury, cadmium, or arsenic. But, so does the soot on your roof from burning coal and when you're burning in the rain you're producing the same thing. Only instead of collecting it it's leaching into the ground. We plan on finding out how much material is produced and having it tested at MSU to get parts per million. The coal plants put it in landfills for years until an incident in Kingston, TN. We're only using water as a scrubbing agent which will be filtered and recycled. Ultimately the water will evaporate. The reason we are buying our coal from a power plant supplier is they have already tested the coal for being the cleanest burning on a larger scale of scrubbing. If the test comes back that the parts per million are safe we will simply toss the fly ash and plaster of paris in the ash bucket. I have not found any regulations on a forge scruber. This was the only sight that even mentioned such a thing. But, the only information I found was to avoid them. We need to find out if we're producing a five gallon bucket or a fifty gallon drum a year.. If anyone is more knowledgeable they're input is appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Trace Elements in West Virginia Coals (your coal may be different) Antimony (Sb) Erbium (Er) Manganese (Mn) Tantalum (Ta) Arsenic (As) Europium (Eu) Mercury (Hg) Tellurium (Te) Barium (Ba) Fluorine (F) Molybdenum (Mo) Terbium (Tb) Beryllium (Be) Gadolinium (Gd) Neodymium (Nd) Thallium (Tl) Bismuth (Bi) Gallium (Ga) Nickel (Ni)Thorium (Th) Boron (B) Germanium (Ge) Niobium (Nb) Thulium ™ Bromine (Br) Gold (Au) Praseodymium (Pr) Tin (Sn) Cadmium (Cd)Hafnium (Hf) Rhenium (Re) Tungsten (W) Cerium (Ce) Holmium (Ho) Rubidium (Rb) Uranium (U) Cesium (Cs) Indium (In) Samarium (Sm)Vanadium (V) Chlorine (Cl) Iridium (Ir) Scandium (Sc) Ytterbium (Yb) Chromium (Cr) Lanthanum (La) Selenium (Se) Yttrium (Y) Cobalt (Co) Lead (Pb) Silver (Ag) Zinc (Zn) Copper (Cu) Lithium (Li) Strontium (Sr) Zirconium (Zr) 3 hours ago, calderaforge said: If the test comes back that the parts per million are safe we will simply toss the fly ash and plaster of paris in the ash bucket. Who is going to put their name on a document and certify that parts per million are safe? How are you going to dispose of the contents of the ash bucket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calderaforge Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 Exactly, You are completely correct Glen. All of those elements are in coal and they are released into the environment every time it's used. It's been that way for thousands of years. Do you wear a hazmat suit when you forge? I don't and I've even been known to eat a sandwich without washing my hands. Do you use the West Virginia coal? What do you do with your ash bucket? Here's the conversation, just because the smoke passed through a thin mist of water that works as a filter and is the industry standard because it reduces co2 and green house gasses, did it become toxic waste? Rub your hand in the inside of your hood and the soot on your fingers is what your talking about. What the parts per million of that and would you consider it safe? There are environmental agencies that test soil and other materials every day for amounts of contamination and sign off as to whether or not it is safe. Mod note: you forget that your process is now concentrating the toxins. that is the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 As I recall the materials testing labs sign off on their findings, not if the materials found is safe or not safe. Local rules and regulations apply to you. We can try to assist you with the blacksmithing part but if a compliance officer visits YOUR location, YOU will have to deal with him. Show him your paperwork, the rules you found, what you did to comply with those rules and hope he is in a good mood. He has access to everyone in his department (and other departments) whose job it is to enforce what they think the rule means. Your call from here on as we can not, and do not, provide legal advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calderaforge Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 If you like I would be willing to post test results when this is no longer theory. First thing is to see if there is a noticeable reduction of smoke and smell. The purpose of the unit is to appease nosey neighbors and zoning officials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 It would be interesting to see the olfactory testing results. Please post the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calderaforge Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 My apologies Glen. I wasn't looking for legal advice. We've designed a device that we thought might be beneficial to other blacksmiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the other dave Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 your coal supplier should be able to give you an analysis of the coal you would be using which you can use to calculate the ash loading and SO2 emissions of your forge fires. The problem you will have is that a forge is not a closed combustion unit and the large amounts of excess air you will have in your stacks means the percentage of ash and SO2 is a lot less per cubic foot than the local utilities. Since no scrubber is 100% efficient, the removal efficiency will suffer due to the reduced concentrations of pollutants in the flue gas. Also, where is the Calcium source for the SO2 scrubbing? Or is the water you are planning on using extremely hard? And when you install a scrubber, will you have to do periodic discharge monitoring so you can report the PPM of your off-gas after going through the scrubbing. My experience is that the EPA will issue you a permit which specifies how much of each pollutant you can discharge and it is up to you to periodically report the actual discharge. And don't forget to install stochiometric sampling ports on your stack downstream of the scrubber and an access platform for the testing team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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