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Scrubbers and the epa


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Hello All,,

This is my first post. My name is Terry Haumer and I own Caldera Forge in Livingston, Mt. I am currently considering setting up a learning facility with six forge stations. I've scanned the posts about scrubbers and the general consensus is that it's an epa nightmare. Unfortunately the only regulations I've found have pertained to large scale coal power plants. I haven't found any regulations regarding a small scrubber on a coal forge. If someone can direct me to link describing the legal guidelines you're sighting it would be appreciated.

 Thanks 

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What did the EPA tell you when you asked them?  

I had a student who was told by a city zoning compliance officer he needed an EPA permit to burn coal in his forge at his house.  He contacted the EPA and asked.  They asked "How much coal will you be burning in a year?"; "A couple of hundred"---"Tons?"; "No Pounds!". They told him to come back when he got up to the hundred ton range and very nicely sent him a letter saying so.  Unfortunately the compliance officer then said he needed a open burning permit; filed 10 working days before each time he lit the forge and costing US$20 per time.   As an underemployed father of a disabled son; that was out of the question. Until he moved and the problem disappeared.    He teaches smithing now.

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I haven't approached the epa yet. The city planners for Butte, Mt. were concerned with coal smoke in the city limits. Just educating myself on the regulations of scrubbers due to the fact that a couple of your members said that  you could be fined or thrown in jail because of one.

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Sure, but we're talking about five or more new students every month. People just learning to work with coal, definitely not practiced. I've been to Turley's school and there is a lot of smoke. I appreciate your response, was wondering if you knew where we might find the regulations or a contact the person who had a problem with the epa? To avoid any trouble.

 Thanks again 

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One problem with scrubbers is that even when not needed, IF you use one, they have to be reported and inspected regularly plus the HazMat disposal of the collection material, its not cheap.  there is a thread about it here already somewhere., in the USA, many timea a scrubber is not needed, BUT if one choose to install one, for what ever reason  it opens a large can of worms. because  If you have a scrubber, it must not only have an annual EPA inspection and comply with all federal standards for scrubbers, but the residue it collects is classified haz-mat material and requires haz-mat disposal, neither is cheap. 

 

 

 

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I haven't found any information that they need to be inspected on that scale. That's what I'm looking for. I've read the thread, but haven't found a link to the regulations. My boiler maker buddies who do refinery shut downs, feel that the collection material would be minimal on six to seven tons of coal.  They've designed me a system, but I would like to clarify the regulations   .

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You might check out  www.epa.gov/mt  

Digging over at the www.epa.gov I found out that at least Arkansas knows some discretion: (was searching on blacksmith)

Arkansas SIP: Regulation of Plan § 4. Permits:

   (f) A permit shall not be required for the installation, alteration, or operation of an air contaminant detector, air contaminant recorder, combustion controller or combustion shutoff, or for any of the following equipment: 
(iii) Furnaces, ovens and heaters-- 
 - natural-gas fired or liquefied petroleum gas-fired or electrically heated furnaces for heat-treating glass or metals, the use of which does not involve molten materials, kilns for firing ceramic ware, heated exclusively by natural gas or liquefied petroleum gas or any exhaust system or collector serving them exclusively; 
 - blacksmith forges; 
 - crucible furnaces; 

 - pot furnaces or induction furnaces with a capacity of 1,000 pounds or less each, in which no sweating or distilling is conducted, nor any fluxing conducted utilizing free chlorine, chloride and fluoride derivatives and ammonium compounds; 
 - on-lease oil and gas heaters or heater treaters; gas fuel and No. 1 and No. 2 fuel-oil burning equipment used for space heating, service water heating and electric power generation (less than 60,000 lbs/hr steam capacity); 
 - fuel-burning, refuse-burning and cooking equipment used in connection with a structure designed and used exclusively as a dwelling for not more than four families; and 
 - bakery ovens and confection cookers where the products are edible and intended for human consumption, and any exhaust system or collector serving them exclusively. 

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Thanks for your time Thomas much appreciated. I've been reading from the epa website and it's about as clear as mud. So what you posted says that you don't need a permit in Arkansas for a air contamination detector or shutoff valve on a gas or oil forge. You didn't happen to read that you need a permit or inspection on a scrubber on a coal forge did you? That's what I'm having trouble finding. 

Where did you get the information about the annual epa inspection and federal standards for scrubbers? Maybe that is where I should start looking?

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Good fire maintenance will reduce the smoke. At start up you can control the amount of smoke by building a good hot fire from sticks or kindling and then add coal a little at a time so the fire burns any smoke produced. A chimney with a good draft and a high velocity stack should dilute any smoke with air. 

 

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Cool, would you mind posting me link to that exact page please? I've been on the epa website and only found regulations on things like generators.  Thanks for the info Glen. I've been a blacksmith for 28yrs. Working highend homes. What I'm trying to figure out is what is the exact wording of the regulations is to create a scrubber accordance. 

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The short answer is that you need to contact your local authorities and see what they require. Every area is different when it comes to this. California is far different than say Wyoming when it comes to air pollution standards. There is a ceramics group in Nevada where I live that travels to Wyoming to do wood fired projects because they are not allowed in Las Vegas.

If you need EPA info, you need to get the information straight from the EPA not secondhand.

 

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I thought I gave the link to the Montana EPA; hopefully it has a way to contact them directly and they will know what applies out there.

  www.epa.gov/mt  

I know the issue with new students and coal forges.  I used to demo at a local Arts festival till a student took over whilst I visited the facilities and smoked out some of the paying vendors.  Never asked back. (And it was the one closest to my shop too!)

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Thanks Biggundoctor and ThomasPowers. I believe your answers are both correct. As blacksmithing evolves in these modern days, it seems that thinking of ways to be able to operate a coal forge were we want to be located rather then moving or putting up taller chimneys were they don't want chimneys to begin with. Might be beneficial.  Maybe, scrubbers aren't such an abstract idea in some areas. I don't think fear of the epa or cost should obstruct progression.  I put a spark arrestor on my motorcycle and get to ride in the forest. Maybe, I but an attachment on my coal forges and I get to set up next to a college. Thanks for your time.

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The folks in your area that make, enforce, or interpret the rules in your area have the answers. We can make suggestions, but it is YOU that gets the knock on your door. 

Choose your best options wisely.

 

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Now if you want to be progressive with the smithing go with induction heaters. Cleaner and a whole lot faster than a flame. Where I used to work I played with one of the 30Kw units we had. The test coil could take a piece of 1.25" round bar and get 4" of it from room temp to yellow in about 12-15 seconds.

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Oh yeah, an induction forge and a hundred ton press. Your making money. We could have justified one in 2006 just for upsetting. Now my clients are mountain  modern. Just basically metal carpentry. The most modern tools in the school are going to be 3# cross peins and  the scrubbers to pass zoning.

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Depending on how much a scrubber and the associated fees run, an induction unit may be less expensive. We had a used 25k or 30k that was for sale for around $10,000. A pancake coil and you are off and running.

When I was in CA there were some guys getting coke from the oil refineries, and it burned very clean. So you may look for a local supplier of coke or bulk charcoal since both of those would be far cleaner than green coal.  Is this going to be 6 stations running 8 hours 5 days a week, or 6 stations off and on?

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You might have miss understood me. I think induction is incredible. I ment that you could make good money with one in a production environment. I've used a hundred ton press and gas forges for production for years. As far as the school I would love to do it full time in the future. I'm currently  two years out on projects before that can happen. I've been working on a design for a scrubber with a boilermaker that rebuilds them in refineries that can be produced for less then $3,500, we're waiting on parts for the prototype to test. The coal is coming from a supplier to a power plant in Montana. The school will be traditional hand forging and forge welding. 

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