VaughnT Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Long story short, I bought a punch from a smith. He said it's H13 and I have no reason to doubt it. I've never worked with this alloy, so I was looking forward to the experience and not having to constantly reshape the working end. Sadly, the tool didn't survive the first go. Maybe five hits with a hand hammer and it bent. Fair to say that I'm unimpressed. I wasn't trying to punch through the railroad spike, just form a countersink divot. The spike was orange hot, and as you can see from the discoloration on the punch, I got about 3/8" deep before calling it good. The punch didn't produce as great a swell in the sides of the shank as I would have liked, but it's certainly serviceable as far as countersinks go and lets folks know this is hand forged. I've never worked with this alloy and I'm definitely unhappy that it would bend so easily. My current punch is made from 5/8" car coil spring and hasn't bent, so I think maybe the punch would have worked if it hadn't been only 3/8" in diameter. Should the H13 have performed better? Is this a sign of bad heat-treat? Can I salvage this? I was thinking about trying to straighten it out, but don't know diddly about H13 and how it works. What should I expect? Maybe the best option is to cut the working end down and regrind it while it's in the lathe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 I’m no expert but I don’t think it is H13. That stuff is air hardening and stays incredibly hard even at dull red heat. As far as I know, one would have to anneal H13 in order to get it remotely ductile enough to bend it the way your punch did. I would ask for a refund or for a new punch and I’m not one to send things back when I’m not happy with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 I was wondering about the alloy because everything I'd heard suggested it would be seriously tough. That's why I wasn't worried about it when the smith made an unauthorized change to the design. Sadly, the only option I have now is to fix this punch. The guy's been pretty clear that he's not interested in replacing the tool. I could contest the charge via Paypal since he made and shipped something I didn't exactly order, but... that'll get my money back and I still won't have a punch. Sucks because I intentionally bought from him so I could support another smith. Paid double what I could have gotten an H13 punch from Blacksmith Depot or the like, but chose to do business with a craftsman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 I’ve always heard that H13 is highly desired for hot work under a power hammer....I just can’t conceive of an explanation other than that smith is not reputable. I’m not sure but I assume it is considered bad form to use the name of the person on this forum but, is it a well known individual or someone you just found online? The fact he won’t stand behind the product tells me he knows. I’d try to get the money back anyway and then get one from someone you can trust. There is a YouTube tong maker who does his work in Taiwan and me has his H13 punches machined to his specs and then handles them. His prices are close to what it would cost for the steel around here. Shipping hurts a little, but that’s how you convince yourself to get multiple tools to make it worth it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 Funny that you mention GS because I emailed him about getting one of his handled punches before I opted for this one. Glenn was very nice, easy to deal with, etc. I just opted for someone different... for no particular reason. I'm seriously regretting that decision now! Is the maker well-known? I'd say no, but he's trying to get up there. Posts a lot on FB, though I don't know if he's a member here. He posted pics of a punch he'd just made, and it looked exactly like what I was envisioning I'd need for the countersinks in railroad spikes. Then he sends me something completely different. Then what he sent me bends in the first five blows, not even getting one hook finished. Ugh! I guess I should file a claim with Paypal. His last communication with me said he'd make up a new one "in good faith", like I'd done something wrong and was at fault... but he was going to be cool about it. Kinda irked me, especially considering that what he sent isn't what I ordered. That was a week ago and I've not heard a peep since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 To be honest, the more I think about that design punch the more I don’t like it. I guess it would be okay for a countersink but that thick section in the middle basically eliminate the option of punching and drifting a little bit. Plus it’s a waste of expensive material...if it’s H13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Is that a hammer dent or a chip on the hammered end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 28, 2018 Author Share Posted June 28, 2018 26 minutes ago, Lou L said: To be honest, the more I th8nk about that design punch the more I don’t like it. I guess it would be okay for a countersink but that thick section in the middle basically eliminate the option of punching and drifting a little bit. Plus it’s a waste of expensive material...if it’s H13. The thing was only ever meant to form the countersink in the railroad spikes. The thicker middle section is just so it can be held in the specialty tongs I bought from a member here who does awesome work. There is a whole range of H13 punches available from the blacksmith supply shops that work with tongs like these -- basically a fancy handle with interchangeable bits. 18 minutes ago, Daswulf said: Is that a hammer dent or a chip on the hammered end? It's a ding. The maker said it was annealed on the struck end but tough and would last for years. With this much deformation in just a few hits, I'm seriously doubting the veracity of that claim. At least it didn't chew up my hammer face! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I’m going out on a limb here, but I think it is very difficult to anneal one section of H13. It has to cool super slowly in ash or vermiculite without losing heat to fast due to part of it sticking out. Maybe he heated just the working end to critical and let that air cool and the rest was already annealed. Hmm, maybe he tempered the end and just doesn’t know the difference between annealing and tempering? Or, most likely, it’s not H13. For a second there I thought it looked like the top half of a pre-formed concrete anchor but even those would Ben tougher than what you’ve experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 It's a wonderful punch. It taught you many good lessons about all things except how to make and use a proper punch. If it wasn't too costly, I'd put it somewhere prominent as a reminder. If it was expensive, you can try and "repair" it...and maybe learn some more lessons in life, or maybe learn how to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear on this one Ya never know. I know that sounds snarky but We've all been there and done that. Most have to learn it several times over at the HF tool store buying junk that is priced just too tempting to pass up. Heck...today I spent $ 350 at an auction on a ton of questionable untested stuff...we'll see if it (re)teaches a life lesson or actually turns out to be that rare time when whims and "auction fever" pay off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 28, 2018 Author Share Posted June 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Kozzy said: .... except how to make and use a proper punch. If it wasn't too costly, I'd put it somewhere prominent as a reminder. If it was expensive, you can try and "repair" it...and maybe learn some more lessons in life, or maybe learn how to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear on this one Ya never know. I didn't make it, so that's certainly not on me. Using it is a no-brainer because it's just putting a divot on some really hot steel -- something I think I'm qualified to do. Is it expensive? Well, cost me $60. To someone that can drop $350 on "questionable" stuff at an auction, that might not be costly. To me, it's a tidy sum. Can it be repaired? That's why I asked. This forum is chock full of people more familiar with H13 than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I unfortunately phrased it wrong...the SELLER taught you how NOT to make a punch. Sorry if I implied otherwise. Whether it can be repaired is probably an unknown as the material seems to be other than that which was claimed--or possibly just the HT he did on it. I would have fallen for it too--looks like a useful and interesting style that I will likely be trying on the lathe with a known material. Poor wording on my part...I'll blame it on the 2 hour drive to and from that auction. Yea, that's the ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 28, 2018 Author Share Posted June 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kozzy said: ...looks like a useful and interesting style that I will likely be trying on the lathe with a known material..... No worries, friend. If you ever do give a try at a punch like this, let me know. I seem to be in need.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 VaughnT, Sorry about your dreadful experience. I should like to know the name of this scoundrel so I can help warn others of this mountebank and his fraud. Would you please P.M. me with this thief's name and other pertinent details. I suspect that others will, also, want those details. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 That’s a good point. I didn’t have any insights on a possible fix. Here is what I’d try: I’d get it real hot and use my swage block half round to try to straighten it. Then I’d read the spec sheets on target temps for hardening H13 and go by color in my rinky dink coal forge and air cool it (maybe use the shop fan for insurance). After that I’d take a file to it and expect it to skate the file. If it doesn’t I send the guy a nasty gram. If it does I put the striking end in the fire just before it gets red (1000 degrees is the temper target...I’m not sure what that looks like on H13) and take it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Get your money back from PayPal, give the guy a bad review, and move on. As my wife is fond of saying, Life is to short to dance with ugly men. As for YOU repairing it, what nonsense! You put down your hard-earned money for something that utterly failed to perform as expected. Why on earth should you have to pay for HIS mistake? If you bought a brand-new car and the axle broke as you were driving home from the dealer, would you expect to have to figure out how to fix it yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 X2 on JHCC's comment. File a complaint. Get a refund. Not a replacement. Don't attempt to fix it. A refund may require some evidence of defective product, such as your photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Remember too that sometimes a steel dealer will ship the wrong material and if the tool maker doesn't test they can be greatly surprised by the outcome---or the person they shipped too can spring the surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Perfectly true, but again, not an excuse for shipping something defective and certainly no excuse for not making it right. When I was in the furniture business, we once got a bad batch of drawer slides that we didn't bother to check because that supplier had hitherto given us excellent product. When customers started to complain, we figured out the problem, fixed all the ones that had already broken, and proactively contacted everyone who had bought dressers made with those slides (but not yet experienced any issues) and either switched them out ourselves or sent them replacements (if they lived too far away to send a tech). We didn't charge our customers a dime, because we knew that their good will and repeat business were more important to us than recovering a few hundred bucks on some drawer slides. You can rest assured that we had words with the supplier, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 If you were given a pint of water instead of the pint of beer you ordered at the bar, you'd certainly be sending it back... and that isn't even close to $60. You didn't receive what you ordered, so regardless of it being defective, I would return it, get a refund, and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Before we completely run down the tool supplier, one question has not been asked: What color was the punch when it was being used? If the section that distorted got up to an red/orange color, I would expect it to deform, H-13 or not. I admit that it isn't likely that punching a recess in a rail spike would do that, but I have had distortion in my H-13 hammer eye punch when I let it get too hot. As regards repair, Lou's suggestions seem in line, but I don't think that his recommendation for annealing the struck end will be too easy to effect without annealing the rest of the piece. I think you might need a heat sink for the business end to ensure it doesn't get annealed as well. I expect it will be extremely difficult to anneal just one section of the punch. My recommendation would be to harden and temper it to the working range you want, then simply use a soft face hammer when punching. The tool does look like it was turned on a lathe to me, which suggests that it was from fully annealed stock, at least at that point. If H-13, my theory would be that it was sent out without being hardened. $60 for a basic tapered round punch sounds like highway robbery to me. Why not just forge your own? A piece of 5160 coil spring from a spring shop (often tossed in almost pristine shape and available for a box o donuts) will give you enough stock for a bunch of these. If you make enough of them, make sure you use them when the stock is hot and the punch is cold (cool every 3 hits and swap them out between heats) they should give you good service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 28, 2018 Author Share Posted June 28, 2018 On 6/28/2018 at 9:03 AM, Latticino said: What color was the punch when it was being used? $60 for a basic tapered round punch sounds like highway robbery to me. Why not just forge your own? One divot in a 5/8" spike.... there's not enough heat to even begin to warm up the punch. Plus, the bend in the shank begins back at the juncture with the main body, not the little bit that was actually in contact with the orange-hot steel. Was the price "highway robbery"? Well, small businesses often have to charge more than the big companies. I looked around at all the similar punches from the big supply places, and nobody was offering what I was looking for. I could have bought something and then ground the end to my needs, but I opted to go with a small maker. I was specifically interested in the design because it worked with my tongs. I didn't have any 1" bar that I could have made into a punch, and I still don't have any H13 to try out. Since this guy had everything.... seemed like a good idea. Lesson learned, obviously. The punch I ordered was bullet-shaped and wouldn't have been able to bend. Why he changed the design and sent me this is beyond my imagining, but that's where we're at. Hopefully, he's not forgotten me and my replacement punch is on the way. Hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I don't think you can anneal a H13 piece that short without causing issues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I would not wait too long. Hit PayPal for the refund. Keep in constant contact with him as to the status of the replacement, and tell him he will get paid when the correct design punch is delivered and tested. If he cannot deliver by a certain date let fly with the reviews. It amazes me how consumers allow some businesses to walk all over them. I would have been in contact with him as soon as I opened the box and saw it was the wrong design - it was not what you ordered. If he is a new manufacturer and trying to get a rep he is doing it all wrong. I had a machine and fab shop, and I put customer service at the top of my duties. You may want to contact other buyers on FB and see what their experience with him has been. As to the punch, do not touch it until you get the new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Lol, yes you can forge it straight and re heat treat this tool. Do assume it's H13 and follow the procedure. It is in the heat treaters guide companion. And i have the procedure from Frank Turley that, I believe, I got from here. Oops, I'm going to amend that. I must have missed it,. Are those two "collars" part of the forging? If so, disregard what I said. No matter what, the inside corners should be radiused. Otherwise they will develope old shuts,, annealed or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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