One burner first forge

[Frosty]

Did you contact admin (US)?

It seems a little wonky to me, it'll only load a few pages beyond the one I select from the search. Until Admin gets it straightened out, do a site search and select the page number next up the list. It's a hassle but it works, I'll report the problem.

In future though if you have a problem with the site just select the " Report Post" button in the upper right of the post. You can tell them what the problem is in the window that appears. Using Report post brings it to a moderator's attention immediately where contact us is a little lower priority, they get checked but not as quickly.

Frosty The Lucky.

[RHayes]

Frosty, I figured out how to hit the refresh button so have been reading  burners 101.  

So, I've played around with my forge a bit and while putting a coat of !CS 100HT, decided to pull the burner and make another.

I plan to use an odd number of  slots as suggested (probably 3?), a better flare, and possibly a different mig tip.( used one for .030 )

Might be awhile to get this done, but any suggestions would be appreciated.  

 

 

[Mikey98118]

8 hours ago, RHayes said:

I plan to use an odd number of  slots as suggested (probably 3?),

Definitely used three.

[Frosty]

Three slots. File the bottom ends square and grind or file the inside to a chisel bevel. Like a wood chisel with the flat on the outside of the tube. This reduces bad turbulence and improves performance. 

I'm surprised Mike didn't say so, these are his babies. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I have said so in the Forges 101 thread and in great detail; don't want to keep repeating the same facts over and over, on an old burner design. To change emphases, " it's a goody but an oldy" in the Mikey world. Something new please...

[Frosty]

Yeah, repeating ourselves gets old, I'm getting tired of it myself. Maybe just a link? I would but I don't have a list of them to cut and paste so I end up repeating myself. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I know a lot of repeating is necessary before even the simplest idea "catches on," But I'd rather repeat something new, here and there 

[stevomiller]

On three slots, would it increase air swirl if you did the following:

Chisel grind left vertical edge of each slot with flat facing the OD of the tube, and chisel grind the right vertical edge with the flat facing the ID of the tube? Seems it would. I think I will make two identical burners except for that and see. Might be awhile tho, threw my back out this weekend, and after 3 surgeries and 15 procedures it could last two days or two months.

[Mikey98118]

I'm not sure of your terms as laid out, but if you grind bevels in a parallel fashion on the openings long edges (not the for and aft edges) of the burner's rectangular air openings, they should help the incoming air to swirl. However, since incoming air will be slipping past those edges at a steep angle, rather than directly across them, the beveling will be less effective than on the for and aft edges. Will this work prove worthwhile? That is an open question. A partial answer is that the farther forward the side bevels are on the openings the more effective they will be. So start at the forward section of the three air openings, and stop when you get tired; that way you will get more bang for the work. 

[stevomiller]

Sorry for being unclear. Yes you interpreted my monkey speak as I intended. Imagine the bevels of each ports long sides paralleling eatch other, and being tangential to the tube.

Thanks for reinforcing my thought that the distal portions would have the greatest impact.

Perhaps adding a small lip  would aid things, shaped like the small blades of a squirrel cage blower wheel.

[RHayes]

When milling slots like these, I find myself automatically centering the work piece on the end mill  but now wonder if milling the slots off center might be more effective?  Firewood has taken priority but just about done with it.

[Frosty]

Interesting thought, I've wondered about making the air intakes with various air foil profiles, the trumpet bell intake of commercially made linear amplifiers being the prime example. A chisel edge on the distal end of the intake slots is as basic as an airfoil gets and it's beneficial. 

If you do some experiments please keep us in the loop. An inspection mirror and smoke really helps you judge if you're efforts effect the air stream.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

An inspection mirror and smoke really helps you judge if you're efforts effect the air stream.

I only considered smoke tests as a visual aids for others, as I prefer to let burner flames be the final arbiter. However, that is just a personal preference. If smoke tests, prove helpful to some, then why not?

[Frosty]

Did you know exactly how a jet ejector varied from a linear inducer when you first started? As far as I know nobody was making jet ejector, burners when I started. I lucked out when Cruz gave me that box of induction device paperwork or I'd be using a linear, probably a version of Ron's. Plumbing part linear inducers are as old as threaded plumbing, linears are at least many hundreds older.

We're talking to a fellow traveler who wants to poke an eye into just what's going on in the tubes and isn't polluted with prior knowledge. I'm encouraging him. 

The flame is of course the proof of the pudding.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

Did you know exactly how a jet ejector varied from a linear inducer when you first started?

Heck no; I just felt my way along all these years, and only understood clearly in hindsight. Anything that helps others to learn quicker than I did is fine and dandy.

[Frosty]

I probably would've progressed faster without all that literature, it raised a lot more questions than it provided answers. I had to try and figure out why a jet ejector was so much stronger than a linear. I still don't know the main difference at our level is the direction of the air intake. Maybe if I was better at math I could do some of Bernoulli's calculations and get an idea. But . . . nope I had to go for visuals of what was going on in the inducers.

Soooo, I built a linear and a jet ejector from clear plastic tubing so I could watch the flow patterns. If you pump smoke through the jet you get to see the jet and watch the mixing as it moves. It doesn't mix completely in a straight tube, even with "turbulators." You can get it pretty good though.

Having it intake smoke though really shows what's going on, the jet is sort of a fixed structure, get it right and it's like a standing wave just sits there. The induced air is where all the action is. Get it right and it forms sort of a tube shaped smoke ring thing. sometimes it looks like you're turning a sock inside out by pulling the toe out through the tube. The smoke gets thinner and thinner till it exhausts out the nozzle.

I didn't build one with a fully tapered tube so I don't know what that looks like.

There are CGIs of what's going on in commercial jet ejectors and it's incredible. The jet accelerates from a few hundred MPH to super sonic just past the throat and forms a standing wave of 100s of atmospheres before it passes that zone and expands making a near vacuum.  That is what I remember of one example of jet ejector. They make the things way larger than RR tank cars and those aren't the really big ones. The chamber the astronauts train in is evacuated with jet ejectors. The storm drain cleaning trucks are evacuated with one about the size of a brick. 

It's hard to stop looking at the sites. They're marketing fluff so there isn't a lot to learn reading them but the videos are awesome. I can't fault someone for wanting to play around and see how they work. I sure don't know but I can make a seriously detuned one get steel HOT so I'm good.

Frosty The Lucky.

[RHayes]

Thanks for the input.  I don't expect to stray from what has already been established and will surely post a pic before the next burner gets installed.  I'm thinking another regulator and ball valve this time because I want to put my weed burner back together.  

Although not very creative, I was able to make a couple  of pivot ends for a manual tire changer/bead breaker, and forge the demounting end of the  bar in my new forge. (mounting and demounting takes place with the rim bolted to the 8" round plate)  This kind of stuff has me thoroughly hooked.

[Frosty]

Looks like a bead breaker to me, all it's missing is the center post to pivot the tire tool on. Feels good to use tools you make with your own hands doesn't it?

Frosty The Lucky.