hello

[boattlebot]

well here it goes,

new guy from upstate new york (if anyone is even remotely close to here that would be awesome) and I'm very new to this. bought a anvil from harbor frieght (yes I know) and I got some 1/4inch steel I'm putting ontop of it (to make it less harbor frieghty) I'm currently working on building my forge (going the charcoal hair dryer root) took the lid off one of my old tool boxes (I was going to put it big hole up and line it with fire brick but after more digging around I decided I'll use it as the stand and go see if a buddy of mine has any brake drums off a van or truck laying round). I also got some hammers from harbor frieght. little mini sledge thingy with a sloped back a ball peen and a tack hammer. why a tack hammer? becuase I figure I can use it for rivits or somethin for reasons that will soon become aparent. 

I'm getting my shop set up for the most part right now (it's also my storage locker, garage, and fabrication shop. it's tiny. you can't work on a full sized bagger in there to give you an idea) 

my eventual goal is to be able to make blades. (told you it would be aparent) knifes mostly. and swords. (I'm a sucker for a nice claymore....) but I also realize you can't just buy an anvil and make a sword and call it a day. so some advice would be nice here (even if it's just where on here to look for beginner stuff, I looked and looked and really couldent find a here's how not to be a dumb uhhhh donkey? (side note is cursing permissible here?) or just a general idea of where to begin. I'd also like to make practical things. like I really don't know to be honest. so again any advice is apreaciated. 

 

some things to know bout me,

I consider myself a very smart idiot. so feel free to tell my I'm a idiot. I'm also bad at spelling. my autocorrect actually handed me a 2 week notice last week becuase of it. otherwise I joke and just try to have a good time. might as well right? who sets out to have a bad time? 

I'm also known to ramble on about nothing while sometimes talking in circles without ever reaching a conclusion. (no I'm not a politician) so thanks for reading this rambling mess of a sleep deprived biker who decided he wants to hit glowing metal with a hammer

 

 

ps. where do you get cheap metal to just bang around? 

[Jon Kerr]

Hello! Welcome to IF..... I'm very new here (and to blacksmithing) too, but I thought I would respond and perhaps be able to help with what I've learned from the good guys here so far.....!

If you haven't read this yet, please do: Read this first

Regarding your Forge, you'll learn a huge amount from reading this thread about the JABOD Mk1, and also this one about the MkIII. The JABOD (Just a Box of Dirt) forge is a cheap (free?) and easy to build side blast forge, suitable for charcoal, which lots of people have had success with. There are similar ones made from brake drums but they're often bottom blast, which seems to be less efficient according to this thread.

 

I don't know much about harbour freight anvils (I'm in the UK), but I don't see why it wouldnt be ok, at least to begin with. Ultimately, you want as much mass under the head of the hammer as possible, but the anvil doesn't need to be huge- metal only moves under the head of the hammer anyway. See the Improvised Anvils thread for inspiration, ideas or validation.

2 hours ago, boattlebot said:

I'm getting my shop set up for the most part right now (it's also my storage locker, garage, and fabrication shop. it's tiny. you can't work on a full sized bagger in there to give you an idea) 

Are you using the forge inside or out? Watch out for carbon monoxide poisoning (amongst other things) in a confined space. Not to mention the fire risk in a busy shop.

2 hours ago, boattlebot said:

my eventual goal is to be able to make blades. (told you it would be aparent) knifes mostly. and swords. (I'm a sucker for a nice claymore....) but I also realize you can't just buy an anvil and make a sword and call it a day.

Welcome to the club! Seems like many people here (myself included) started wanting to make knives. Unfortunately, it seems thats actually extremely complex and you need a LOT of skill and knowledge before its possible to make anything resembling a half decent knife.

Regarding "where to start", someone pointed me towards this excellent post by VaughnT here, on How to Get Started and Effective Time Spent at the Forge. He basically recommends starting by making lots of hooks.... 50 or so. The stock is cheap (5mm steel bar) and you can practice a number of basic skills one by one..... drawing out, tapering, flattening the head, scrolling, bending. There is a video online of CCI forging a hook although they add a spade end which isn't necessary really. I'm sure there are many more "wall mounted hook forging" videos out there.

2 hours ago, boattlebot said:

ps. where do you get cheap metal to just bang around? 

Wherever possible really. Just be careful that whatever you find is steel or iron, and not coated, painted, galvanised, etc. One of the motto's I've seen thrown around is "in rust we trust." ie/ if its gone rusty, then its probably some form of plain old iron or steel. If its been left outside and its still shiny, there's something suspicious. There are a few dangers here- one of the main ones being metal fume poisoning from accidentally burning something like Zinc on a galvanised piece.

Rebar is cheap and often readily available. Be aware that its pretty naff metal, and many would say it's not a good idea to practice with poor steel as its not the same as working with decent stuff. I'm using it because I have some lying around and its convenient.

Scrap yards are a good source of cheap metal.

I hope that helps a bit?! 

[boattlebot]

I'd love to use just a hole in the ground but I don't think the landlord would like it much haha the forge will be outside when operating. thanks for the tips. I'm sure as u get more into this I'll have plenty more questions so I look foward to getting more into the site

[Daswulf]

Welcome to the madness. The read this first post is where to start. As you read more and more you'll start picking up the lingo and start to have a better understanding of what you need. For instance that " mini sledge thingy with a sloped back" is a cross pein hammer. 

The harbor freight anvil is an ASO (anvil shaped object) adding a plate to the top still won't be very efficient in use unless somehow you use a hardenable steel and got a full penetration weld. Then comes gardening it...... not worth the effort.  Check out the improvised anvil thread for ideas on what better to use. Can always use the hf anvil just for the horn and hardy hole till you upgrade. 

Cursing is not allowed here. 

 

What fuel do you plan to use? 

Generally a brake drum is too large. I much prefer a brake rotor. Something around 8-9" inner diameter in the opening and about 2-3" deep. That is If you go with a bottom blast forge. The rotor can set in a hole in a " table" so extra fuel can be at hand and also the table is good to hold tools. 

I'm getting ahead tho. We dont know what fuel you have available. Take a read through the solid fuel forge section for some ideas on what can be made pretty easily. 

[boattlebot]

I'm a sucker for madness. thanks for the name of that hammer (is a cross peen a decent hammer to use?) 

I plan on using charcoal (coal is hard to find here so I'll save that for when I actually learn what I'm doing and plus a bag of charcoal is alot less suspicious) and thanks for the tip on the rotor instead of a drum. rotors are alot easier to find. with a rotor will I need to use fire brick or anything? or will the heat on the outside of the charcoal "volcano" (I read how the fire should be on here somewhere. forget what thread it is) be low enough to not worry about the rotor? I'll take a pic of the set up once construction is complete. 

 

and thanks for the heads up on the cursing. I curse alot so I figured it was worth asking before I said something I was not supposed to haha

[ThomasPowers]

Actually a more landlord appealing forge and one better suited for outdoor use in your climate would be to build a JABOD inside the carcass of an old gas grill.  That way you can close it up easily when it rains and grills don't usually cause landlords to have conniption fits... No boards needed for it too.

As for learning; look through the books reviewed at some point you will want _Introduction to Knifemaking_, Sells and Hrisoulas' _The Complete Bladesmith_, _The Master Bladesmith_, _The Pattern Welded Blade_  HOWEVER these are not books to teach you the basics of blacksmithing! Just like you don't start Driver's Ed with "Strategy and Tactics in Formula One Racing" it will really help speed you up to get to bladesmithing by learning fire control, hammer control, tool use, workpiece temperature control, how steel moves, etc before getting into working high carbon/high alloy metals---unless you are very good with frustration and throwing away stuff you have spend solid days working on cause you made a "beginner's mistake" on an advanced project.

Finally the fastest way to accelerate through the learning curve is to find local smiths and spend time with them.  Look for a semi local ABANA Affiliate and get to a meeting or two and ask them who is local to your area!

[boattlebot]

I'll definitely look into those books 

the forge will be stored inside when not in use. only time it'll be outside is when there's a fire in it. 

 

I haven't found any local smith's here. and the only thing I found for an association around here is just a big sales pitch for a swap meet. unless I'm not looking properly 

[ThomasPowers]

So did you go to the Affiliates page on the ABANA website and look?

Have you used google to search on    Rochester site:iforegeiron.com    ? (134 results on my search, though Rochester MN does show up too...)

(It's a known issue that the forum search function causes folks to contravene the ban on cussing; use a good browser search function instead...)

[boattlebot]

I'll do a proper search later today then. didn't know the search function here wasent up to par

[Daswulf]

Cross pein is a fine hammer to use blacksmithing if the face is properly dressed. ( yup there's a thread or 5 on that too. )

You can go with the bottom blast rotor forge for charcoal but it will eat up more fuel than a properly built side blast forge.   With the rotor you dont need anything else to insulate it as long as the table is made of metal right around it. Thomas's idea of a side blast in an old grill would work fine even if you dont need to be more inconspicuous. It's all in what you want to make. Do some reading, check out what others have made and see what works for you with what you have to work with, and the tools you have at hand. 

Remember to use real lump charcoal and not the briquettes. 

 

There are those of us who cuss like sailors in our daily lives, but it doesn't help to learn or teach blacksmithing and there are youngsters on here learning ( or even teaching) on here and Glenn likes to keep it clean so anyone can feel comfortable here. 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

I recommend the vidioes JLPservices is posting on youtube. 

I hope this doesn’t turn into a bad spelling competition, John might have a nervise breakdown...

the Just a box of dirt or simple sideblast forge and 55 forge series are roadmaps (as aposed to blue prints as to low buck forges. 

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of us have transgressed at times; I was once place on moderation for a typo!  If you get a nastygram; don't drop the site; just try to do better in the future and remember there are a wide group of substitute sayings; some very traditional... oh pshaw, sacrebleu or one of my favorites from a SF book "May maledictions follow this nameless thing to the uttermost depths of world slime!"  Handy to train yourself because some day you will be doing a public demo for schoolkids and end up accidentally burning yourself...

[Charles R. Stevens]

Start with the pinned posts at the top of the sub forums your interested in, such as anvils and solid fuel forges.

 

“God’s rotted” being high in my list of book inspired epitaphs (others would still get me a call or letter) 

[boattlebot]

lotsa good stuff in those pinned threads. Haven't read em all yet tho. it's on the to do list. 

got the rotor. a nice drilled slotted one with a top hat  nice and free

[Charles R. Stevens]

Remember, a bottom blast forge burning charcoal will eat you out of house and home, wile the same forge will affordable burn coal. A brake drum/rotor forge is bottom blast. Some recommend using the back rotor with a parking brake drum intrigal to the hat as a fire pot. A fire pot is buy no means necessary, as one can mold a duck nest out of mud. One will quickly find that welding up a bottom tuyere from pipe or tubing (round or square) is cheaper than $50 in 2” pipe fittings. 

Beware of overthinking/overbuilding your first forge. A box of dirt (or a pile of clay bricks) either side blast or bottom blast will alow you to experiment so as to build a better forge after a few weeks and you have learned a bit about fire and steel. Honestly keeping to the biker motif a classic drain pan (lined with clay rich soil to keep the galvanized coating from burning off) will make one a good forge not dissimilar to a rivet forge 

This forge is not lined, and for effecency even with coal I will eventually tamp clay into it, forming a hearth about an inch lower than the rim with a bowl some 6-8” across. 

 

[boattlebot]

that is a very nice looking forge. I'll look into coal if it really is cheaper. but my first couple of fires will most likely be charcoal. 

reason I'm using a box with a rotor is becuase it's free and I don't have to dig a hole. oddly enough it's easier for me to build somethin like this then dig a hole...

[Charles R. Stevens]

Can you source dirt from some where to put in a box? Even cheep cat litter/drysweep works. With charcoal you will have to put a coffe can in the rotor and cut notches in the sides to find the hot spot, as the rotor is simply to shallow for a bottom blast charcoal fire. 

 

These are all incarnations of the box of dirt forge. 

[boattlebot]

unless I buy the dirt and build a box I'm stuck with portable. and grills are to expensive even on craigslist. I haven't found any scrap ones (it was my first thought) the rotor is about 2 inches deep (if you haven't ride home with a rotor on your back you haven't had enough fun) 

this is where I'm at. so far as it looks I'll only be out for fuel and a hair dryer and I'll find somethin to make a foot switch eventually

[Daswulf]

It's not that coal is cheaper, just that a bottom blast forge will burn more faster then a side blast forge. That's what Charles was getting at. 

Whatever you make, go with a proven build to start out with. Then you can experiment from there if you like. Many people try to mix up parts of different forge designs and get frustrated when they dont work right. 

And then there is the air supply to figure out.

[ThomasPowers]

Wow; I've never lived anywhere where I couldn't dig up a scrapped gas grill somewhere.  Hang about a place selling new ones and ask folks about getting their old ones? Scrapyards, fly tipping sites or right about now: Students leaving ones near their dorms as they get out of college!  Used to see piles of them near the dorm dumpsters...

[Charles R. Stevens]

I have drug home road kill horseback. 

In blacksmith roadkill is scrap steel found along the road

 

Dresser drawers, pallets, old trunks, 55 gallon drums...

old tool carts make good bottom blast forge basses, just cut a hole that the rotor will fit in.

[boattlebot]

real horses or iron horses? 

 

everyone wants to sell there grill. I'm on a budget of I can afford a hair dryer. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

I had to decide between iron horses and flesh and blood horses about 20 years ago. Flesh and blood wone out. 

What else can we lay hands on? Old jerry cans work if you cut out one side, I have seen nice bottom blast  forges built from a rotor and a push mower deck 

 

[Daswulf]

Missed the picture of your rotor up there. Looks like it'll work. Would be better with table space around it but with charcoal you can get away with adding more in there. With coal you'd want space to keep extra coal around the fire pot to come from the heat before adding it in. Fresh " green" coal benefits from cooking before adding it in to the fire once it's going. 

Now you need to figure out your T pipe. 

[ThomasPowers]

Back to the PS: I get my steel mainly 3 places:

The local Mom&Pop scrapyard in a small rural town (population 414 in 2000) 20 cents a pound and they have everything from old farm and mine scrap to stuff from the local university---like a huge naval gun (one chunk of it was 40000 pounds...)  You never know what will be there and I have even found an anvil and a set of tongs there before. (150# of auger bits for heavy timber work last Saturday!)

The second is a commercial steel distributor where I buy my 20' sticks of new hot rolled steel at cheap prices---I've bought 20' steel from there for the same price as a 3' piece of the same stock at a big box hardware store. I found it by looking under:  Steel location    on the web.  If there is more then one call around as they will sometimes be selling at different prices.

The third is a local to my northern home Windmill repair and service business that sells steel on the side as they get a discount on volume when they order steel from the supplier and so are happy for other people to make their costs less.  (as my southern place is close to the steel distributor I'll usually pick up stuff there nowadays)

(For coil springs, leaf springs, torsion bars: I made my mechanic a bottle opener from a wrench and now have open access to his scrap pile)