Info Request DIY Ribbon Burner Forge Build

[Daguy]

I've gotten a tank,  and the blanket and IR coating is on the way for my very first home built forge.  Now I'm looking for burner parts for a ribbon burner.  Is the castable refractory you can get at Home Depot or Lowes of high enough quality, or do I need to get tougher stuff?  Also, would two 9" X 3" burners be sufficient for a 14" X 26" Forge housing with 2" of durablanket  (for a 12" interior)?   Any other important considerations as I'm planning the build?

[Buzzkill]

The stuff from big box stores is most likely NOT castable refractory material.  It's more likely to be refractory mortar or cement.  Those are not the same thing. If it is castable refractory you want something that can handle about 3000 degrees F.  I recommend contacting Wayne Coe, who is a member here, for small quantities of material suitable for casting your own ribbon burners. 

That's a really long forge.  Are you planning to do long twists for decorative work or something similar? We usually recommend forges not more than 12 inches long for starters.  Long stock can be passed through an opening in the rear wall of the forge and heating more than 6 inches or so at a time wastes fuel and can degrade the steel.  Using a hand hammer most of us can only work about 6 inches of steel before it needs to go back in the fire.  Repeated heating of high carbon steel can cause decarburization, which may lower the quality of your end product.

If you're using 2 inches of blanket around the entire interior of your tank it will shrink the diameter by a total of 4 inches.  If you use a castable refractory for a hot face that is a half inch thick that will decrease the interior by another inch.  Even then it's still over 1600 cubic inches of forge interior to get and keep hot.  I hope you have a big propane tank to deliver the necessary fuel and deep pockets to keep filling that tank.

In theory two 3 inch by 9 inch ribbon burners of good design should be able to heat that space since that would cover over two-thirds of the length of the forge chamber and you can space them evenly.  I just can't think of anything I've ever done that requires a forge of that size.  Just for a point of reference my current forge is about 11 inches long and has an interior volume of about 250 cubic inches.  I use a single naturally aspirated ribbon burner that has 14 holes and is about 5 inches long by 2 inches wide.

[Daguy]

Buzzkill,

Thanks for the input..  I was just thinking that big because the company I work for was throwing out a tank that size.  I can always cut the length down, but It will have the 9" or 10" finished interior dimension.  What would you recommend for length?  Front and back opening size?  I can plan any size burner, as I haven't started gathering material for that yet.  From your post it sounds like a 12"-14"  length would be more than adequate.  When you say naturally aspirated ribbon burner, are you describing one with no blower?.  I plan on a forced air burner, so how do I figure what size input piping for a given size burner?  

I would appreciate any input you could give on any of the above questions.

[Buzzkill]

Many things are a matter of opinion or preference.  I personally wouldn't build a forge longer than 12 inches for general purpose forging.  Right now my forge front and back openings are the same size as the rest of the forge.  I arrange fire bricks to create the openings I want at the time.   You can always use bricks to make the openings smaller, but if you put permanent ends in place then whatever you built is your maximum opening.  Odd shaped pieces sometimes require larger openings than you had planned.

Yes, a naturally aspirated ribbon burner is one that does not require a blower.  There is a good thread on here if you are interested.  Use your favorite web platform and add "iforgeiron.com" to your search term(s).  The built in search function on this forum is not great.  Search for NARB if you are interested in a ribbon burner without a blower.   If you plan to use a blower then again I'll point you in the direction of Wayne Coe.  He has forge plans, ribbon burner plans, and materials needed to build those things in small amounts at reasonable prices.

There is always a temptation or tendency to think "bigger is better"  or "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" when building the first forge.  I'm no exception.  However, after a little time and experience my thinking is now to build as small as possible and still be able to handle the projects I want to do.  It surprised me a little how small of a forge chamber we can get away with for most projects. The up front cost is less, but that's a minor consideration compared to the ongoing fuel costs.  The larger the volume of the forge chamber, the more fuel will be required to produce a certain temperature.  A poorly built forge and/or inefficient burner can make things worse, but there is no escaping the fact that you have to burn the right amount of fuel to get a certain amount of heat. The larger the forge chamber, the more heat will be required.

[Daguy]

That makes a lot of sense.  Realistically, a machete is probably the biggest thing I'll make.  but I want it to fit odd shapes as I would like to beat out more than just blades.  I don't even know what yet, but I'm one of these "interested in everything that  comes to my attention" guys,  so I don't want to limit myself too much.  The open ends with firebrick as per project sounds like a perfect solution.  And I can always build hinged doors for the ends later if I save the cut off pieces. 

This is why I wanted to start a thread before I started work.  So with a 9" or 10" interior and a  12" length, could I reach forge welding temps with a 2" X 6" burner?  Or would 3" X 6" be better?  What size input piping for the (forced) air supply?  1/2" good for the propane, or 3/4"?  what would be a good size grid for the holes?

I really appreciate the input

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Daguy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance. 

You need to do at least a little reading to have a working handle on the subject so can ask good questions and understand the answers.  Burners 101 is the most currently active and most up to date thread regarding burners including the how and why they do what they do, types, capacities, etc. Forges 101 is the most current thread regarding forge design, types etc.

Some of us have gotten tired of answering the same question over and over when virtually any question has been answered more times than I'm willing to count. You'd have to read my answer no matter where so I recommend you do a little reading in established current discussions. 

It's not personal, we don't know each other well enough to have made the other mad and I'm certainly not discouraging you. We like helping new folk become addicted to the blacksmith's craft. I'm just not going to do the most basic of research for you. I did that decades ago before the internet, hung out in libraries muddled through calc & trig equations without proficiency in basic algebra.

I'll toss you this one though, I'm in a good mood. The size, shape and composition of the shell is meaningless except to adequately contain the ceramic blanket refractory and support the intended work. What counts, the only thing that actually counts is the internal volume and shape. A little reading will tell you how much burner is required for a given volume and what type and or number for a given shape. 

Nay, you don't have to read burners or forges 101 beginning to end. Basic research techniques serve perfectly well enough, skim the subject lines till one meets your needs or interests then skim that thread. Read in depth when it's what you're looking for. Until you've built a basic knowledge you won't be able to ask good questions nor understand the answers. Right now you're displaying a lack of understanding that will stand you in good stead but you need to do some more reading.

Get back then, we'll be here.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Daguy]

On 4/30/2018 at 12:38 PM, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard Daguy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance. 

You need to do at least a little reading to have a working handle on the subject so can ask good questions and understand the answers.  Burners 101 is the most currently active and most up to date thread regarding burners including the how and why they do what they do, types, capacities, etc. Forges 101 is the most current thread regarding forge design, types etc.

Some of us have gotten tired of answering the same question over and over when virtually any question has been answered more times than I'm willing to count. You'd have to read my answer no matter where so I recommend you do a little reading in established current discussions. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

Frosty

Frosty, thanks for the warm welcome followed by the insult fest.  A simple link to an answering thread would have done.  Since this is my first build and I specifically joined the group to learn, not just how to be successful with it, but what things I need to consider, I  can't express fully just how encouraging I found your post.  I especially appreciated the veiled slur upon my intelligence and expression of your superiority.  I hardly believe someone with such a cordial way about them could be known as "Frosty".  Can we all shout "Misnomer"?

[Mod34]

Mod note: Keep it civil, or this thread will be closed.

[JHCC]

Welcome to IFI, Daguy. If you haven't yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!!

[Frosty]

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/46536-burners-101/

 

[Daguy]

Thank you, Frosty.  I 'm reading through the thread  now.  lot's of good info.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

When finished with that thread, this is the next one to read. Both threads are sticky's but providing a link will make it easier for you to find.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/48001-naturally-aspirated-ribbon-burner-photo-heavy/

 

[Daguy]

Frosty

I'd like to apologize for my snarky reply to your first post in this thread.  I was feeling kind of attacked for having asked a legitimate question and reacted before fully assessing the situation.  After reading/skimming a few threads I get where you were coming from.  There IS a ton of info on this board, and you seem to heavily contribute to most of them, with a knowledge base that is self-evident and freely shared.  That being the case, I can see where you would feel it was a never-ending job answering these posts.  And so, Mea Culpa.  I apologize.  Thank you for bothering to reply at all. 

To try to explain myself, I will just say that I am not someone who frequently visits forums.  I really didn't (don't") know how they work. I was (am) extending myself into a new area of inquiry, and google presented me with this forum after a search for the info I was looking for. I just wanted some particular information, and not realizing the "personality" of this community, I just started a new thread to try to get the specific info I needed.  I didn't really even look through available archives.  In my defense, I still see having to spend tens of hours reading through the threads to get the few hours reading of information I need for my small project, since I want to build a Multi-port burner and almost EVERYTHING I've been through so far is about traditional burners (BTW, Impressive thread on your NARB {or should we call it NAMPB for Multi-Port}), but I get where you're coming from. The info is already there for someone willing to put in the effort.  I'll proceed in that direction.

Again, Sorry Frosty.

It occurs to me that "Frosty" is just another way to say, "Cool"

[Glenn]

Frosty was a nickname given to Mr. Frost. (His real last name.) The words the Lucky were added to his name after his encounter with a tree. As to "cool", did you look under his name to see where he is located?

There is a vast amount of information on the site. It is difficult to distill it down to just a quick and informative answer. Usually with the answer in hand, it is followed by the next question in the series. This is human nature, as you learn you want to learn more.

It is sometimes intimidating to be referred to a long post with many replies. You realize up front that it will take a while to read through the entire body of information to dig out the one answer you seek. It would be nice to index the thread much like the index in a book, so you could start on the chapter that interested you most. Such an index is not practical in this format or forum. As you do spend some time reading, you will find that you learn much of the side information related to your question, which makes the answer more than just a quick answer. It also provides answers you next questions, that you never knew you had.

The site is an interactive community which self corrects and self adjusts in short order. Thank you for your apology for my snarky reply to your first post in this thread. We want you to succeed and encourage you to ask questions. Please keep us informed on your project.

[Frosty]

I gladly accept thank you. 

You caught me in a mood with low blood sugar to boot I shouldn't have been so short. Learning to use Iforge is a real curve and it changes frequently so we're always climbing. We all make mistakes and rib each other if it's a good one.  Let's call it good and enjoy the site and good company. Okay?

I agree, NARB is too limited a name, it's only one shape multi-port. I've seen Multi-Outlet burner used too and considered NAMOB but. . . .? If someone comes up with a good one I'll rename it. Maybe.

What do you have in mind for one?

Darn Glenn you beat me to hitting reply. It's not uncommon for people to be typing at the same time. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Daguy]

Then we're all good.  Glad you accepted the apology.  

I didn't really have a different acronym in mind.  I'll give it some thinkin'. Maybe I can make a small contribution to the forum. 

[JHCC]

Daguy, thank you for your eloquent apology to Frosty and by extension to the entire IFI community. It reveals a degree of character and maturity that we don’t often see from those who (for whatever reason) run afoul of the way things are done around here. 

It’s worth noting that your apology contains at least three (arguably all four) of Dr. Aaron Lazare’s “Elements of a Successful Apology” and accomplishes at least four of the psychological benefits of an apology. For the full list, see https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_an_apology_must_do.

We look forward to your future contributions!

[Glenn]

Daguy, you are going to fit in just fine. Your apology was well thought out and presented, Thank You. 

Keep us informed as to your progress and ask specific questions so we can provide specific answers. Blacksmithing is not a sprint but is a lifelong journey in learning, As you learn you then get to pass the knowledge along to others and help them learn. 

[Daguy]

9 minutes ago, JHCC said:

t’s worth noting that your apology contains at least three (arguably all four) of Dr. Aaron Lazare’s “Elements of a Successful Apology” and accomplishes at least four of the psychological benefits of an apology. For the full list, see https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_an_apology_must_do.

It wasn't calculated or anything, just done upon reflection, and NOW I have another squirrel to chase with your reference material.  someday I may learn to focus on one thing at a time, but the wife says she's not holding her breath.

[JHCC]

The linked article is short and to the point; Dr. Lazare’s longer work On Apology (from Oxford University Press) is extremely readable and quite enlightening. I had the good fortune to spend some time with him in connection with my professional life, and speaking with him on this and other subjects made me a wiser and better person.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Daguy, you didn’t come off as calculated. Tho one should expect a bit of grump from anyone that the community has tagged with “curmudgeon”. Here it stands as both warning and term of endearment to be earned. 

Glenn related a story to me about going to another forum unrelated to blacksmithing, he said he lurked for about a year befor he learned enough to be ignorant on the subject at hand. 

This isn’t to say I (or any one else thinks you should have “lurked” in silence for a year, it’s just a comantary about stepping off into a new field of knowledge. Their is not only a bare base of knowledge but a dialect spacific to that field of study. Hard to ask intelligible questions with out it. 

Further complicating things is the nature and purpose of this forum. Glenn created a interactive, serchable, pier reviewed data base on blacksmithing and related metal working arts and technologies. As such the collective we learn that we are not only addressing a single poster, but those who are lurking as well as those who may come along years in the future. 

Due to the nature of this site, and seeing the same poorly worded questions “we” often try to answer the question you need answered as aposed to the one you asked. “We” also try to teach younger generations who seem to have been educated to pass a test, and not taught to learn how to do their own research. 

It is equally flustrating for “us” to have a new member ask a question that will not give them the information they need due to a basic misunderstanding of the terms being used. Then to have them take insult because “we” didn’t answer “their” question. Let’s explore an only slightly exaggerated question. “What material is best for the tuyere for my gas forge?” Now if that doesn’t have you reaching for the Exedrin, give it a few (hours, days, weeks...) and it will.

I Forge iron has taken on a life of its own, and it keeps Glenn and co. hopping.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Come on CRS that's an easy one:  Heavy pure platinum tuyeres outlast almost all others! If you are cheap machining it out of billet inconel will work to a lesser degree. For a hot system; solid tungsten excels!

Generally if you have to ask the question you may profit from all the other stuff discussed too---save for the wordplay and in jokes.  The biggest speed up for finding specifics is to use the browser search engine and iforgeiron.com as a search term rather than the known inadequate forum search function.

[Daguy]

On 5/6/2018 at 1:44 AM, Frosty said:

On 5/6/2018 at 1:44 AM, Frosty said:

I agree, NARB is too limited a name, it's only one shape multi-port. I've seen Multi-Outlet burner used too and considered NAMOB but. . . .? If someone comes up with a good one I'll rename it. Maybe.

What do you have in mind for one?

19 hours ago, Daguy said:

I didn't really have a different acronym in mind.  I'll give it some thinkin'. Maybe I can make a small contribution to the forum. 

I've been thinking.  What about the NASA Burner? Naturally Aspirated, Several Apertures.  It's not as accurately descriptive as Multi-port, but you gotta admit "NASA Burner" is a pretty cool name. 

 

 

[Exo313]

7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Come on CRS

... I'm just now noticing that Charles shares his initials with those of Cold Rolled Steel, and I'm a bit jealous. 

Also: MONA burner? The burner that brings a little smile to your face.... 

[Buzzkill]

22 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

tuyere for my gas forge?”

 

12 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Come on CRS that's an easy one

Isn't that a bit like asking what's the best blower for your naturally aspirated burner?

I think that was CRS's point.