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Navy Hammer sell off


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6 hours ago, beaudry said:

This is a such an absolute classic blacksmith discussion;  about spending  $20,000 [ $50,000 ? ] and months [ years ?] of ''free '' time to forge a $1,000 anvil.

Great to see the pictures of the shop, thanks for sharing.  It would have been amazing to see it in its heyday

I have felt or been driven all my life my experiential knowledge.  To "DO" is to know.   Never one to follow but to blaze my own way (LOL, just sounds cool, right..)..      In the way back,  I was on the plus + side of the equation when it came to money verses equipment and blacksmithing, (also a lot easier back then less expensive and less responsiblities)  as I only bought what I needed and could afford and yes,  it is funny to hear of the spending  the money and years of time to make something from nothing into another something but nothing.. 

I have found that if the work is there for any piece of equipment than it's a work induced need and it will make money..   Then there are things that are fun to have,...   I have a tig welder that will never pay me back but it's great to have when needed to do that job the proper way..  Also have a Mig welder that has paid me back time and time again..

Some times making a purchase like one of these hammers doesn't have to involve the remorse if bought out of fun and to chase down a dream even if it costs more to do it..   Some people are into cars.. Some people into old steam hammers.. :) 

Price and worth can only be set by the person on the journey..     The anvil I want is over 4K, but I get the message and yes I won't be chasing down this dream of steam hammer ownership..   Good thing I have the new shop to put up or I'd have the funds to chase it down and make it mine.. :)  giddy up.. 

The other neat factor is now I have an idea of what is involved and look at this adventure as a fact finding journey..  Now I have the information needed to go in with eye's wide open..

 

yes, it must have been amazing to see..  It was supposed to be a chain making shop but with the size and variety of hammers and forging presses I think they may have done other forgings there as well..

I didn't see a way to have an electric manipulator with spacing at the big hammers and also didn't see a lot of chain hoists at the 3000lbs hammers..  Also, most the anvils dies were missing from the hammers..  Makes me wonder if they were open die?    No racks for materials either..  The only piece of equipment left in the machine shop was a lathe..

 

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On 4/23/2018 at 11:59 PM, beaudry said:

 I meant to ask , if this Navy shop is being closed down, is that kind of heavy forge work still required by the Navy ? and if so is it being done in house at another more modern facility or subbed out to private contractors ? or are they turning more towards all the sophisticated high speed computer driven cutting , welding, forming ,machining and 3D printing technologies available today ?

It seems as if there are lots of listings for industrial heavy forging equipment being sold off or scrapped outright . Is it being replaced with something else or jobbed out overseas like so many things to countries where people are still willing to work  hard for low wages  in hellish conditions ? 

Its been closed for many years now (1973 ) from what I just read.. It's the last building in the Navy yard to still be original.. Boston about 25 years ago started to reclaim the water front,it started off pretty slowly but in the last 10 years it's prime property.. there is a college, office space, and this will be a Hotel..  Land or space in Boston is premium priced..  There was not a lot of foot traffic unlike other parts of the city but if you build it they will come.. 

This is going to based on hearsay but the Navy chain now comes from Taiwan..   The industrial type jobs in the USA are on the decline.. the New Tariffs might get things going again as the price for imports might be high enough to warrant it but whos to say at this point..  Steel is not steel.. I noticed the quality of steel though it has to meet standards is not as good as it used to be..  I've gotten a few bars (imported china steel I'd guess) that had delams/inclusions in them the whole bar length.. 

From what I understand the Navy no longer has it's own forging shops..  Everything is contracted now..   I'm not in the KNow (circles) but vaguely remember  from the late 80's when they said they were going to close a lot of bases where production was done as the shift to technology was implemented.. 

On 4/24/2018 at 2:15 AM, bajajoaquin said:

My knowledge of steam power is much less than others here, consisting of having spent a few hours helping with the startup procedure and then 10 minutes driving a 1910-ish Moline steam tractor.

Also, not at all related to this discussion, but interesting is that there are few or no original steam tractors still around from some of the Plains states because of the mineral makeup of the water. It accelerated corrosion of the boilers.

That is interesting..    It seems the plains states were a driving force in steam tractors..  here in New England the steam tractor never really caught on as they were to big for the hilly terrain..  I had seen a video of a 30 plow drag behind a huge steam tractor in a video.  

here is a PDF I just found on the subject of the forge shop and anchor chain..  I was lucky enough to visit the shop and see some of the made chain in the testing pit.. 

a096861.pdf

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Mare Island had some of the biggest capabilities on the West coast, and it was shut down. I went to the auctions, and bought the lathe out of my Dad's old classroom. I missed out on the platen table with the huge vise on it. I have yet to see another as thick as that one (around 12") it was a beast. It went for $700 but my money had been spent on other items. 

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42 minutes ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Mare Island had some of the biggest capabilities on the West coast, and it was shut down. I went to the auctions, and bought the lathe out of my Dad's old classroom. I missed out on the platen table with the huge vise on it. I have yet to see another as thick as that one (around 12") it was a beast. It went for $700 but my money had been spent on other items. 

Sometimes the funds just aren't there..    Glad you at least got a little something for your effort.. 

I would have taken on the challenge had the shop all ready been  erected and all bills paid but with this left looming it made the best sense.. 

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A couple of things:

1. Steam hammers can be converted to air and run just fine that way. Scot Forge made that conversion to their hammers probably 8-10 years ago and they work great. No lose of power and the operators actually like it better because then don't have hot water dripping on them while they are working.

2. Large forgings are still produced for the navy. Scot Forge makes many of them now as do some of our competitors.

3. Material handling in a modern forge shop is nothing like what you see in the old black and white videos. Tongs are still used but only for very small parts or for small tools. Otherwise various specialized machines are used. This is both for improved safety and efficiency.

4. Forging and anvil is a wonderfully romantic idea and I've thought about it myself many times. To get to a traditional anvil form you need a two piece construction that is either arc or forge welded at the waist. Casting an anvil is a much more efficient want to make one and, provided the heat treatment is done correctly, will give equally good performance to a forged anvil.

5. I'm pretty sure the Navy shop pictured earlier in this thread didn't have that many smallish hammers in it. It has been known for a number of years that this shop was going to be sold. I believe one of my collegues was able to arrange for a 300lb hammer to be donated to the university of Missouri-Rolla, to promote their metallurgy/materials courses. In general, shops like this did large scale work and the small hammers that were in the shop were there to make tongs and test bars. There are still a few shops around with this type of arrangement. Clifford Jacobs and Ladish are a couple of examples.

For those interested in seeing really excellent videos of modern forge work, both on presses and hammers, visit the Scot Forge website

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Hi Patrick thanks for chiming in..  

I spoke with Don at Erie and he said the hammers don't have to be converted at all... Simply hook up and run..   After reading the PDF's Don sent over the only thing needed is a very large air source or a very large storage system to power the things..   They also wrote that it does take a little bit more air vs steam to get the same performance, also the piping should be made larger and ideally there is no aftercooler/intercooler... That the air should be fed to the hammer hot with no cooling...  The heated air has more volume so you get more work out of it for a given Cuft...   Hot air being more in volume... 

4.. Yes it is isn't it.. :)   I was thinkng arc weld at the feet..  Basically the same way Hay Budden did it but without the forge welds..  Or a 2 piece design like the Peddinghaus.. 
At some point I'm going to make a small anvil for a video Demo on it...  I have very little experience or understanding of how others were made but think i have the HB's method pretty much figured out..  They used a lot of butchers for lay out..  Thankfully for the full sized forged anvil it would be based on the Double horn Refflinghaus  with rounded horn vs round horn so super easy to forge or even grind.. 

There was a room in the back where they had many smaller hammers..  I'd say 6 or even 10..  The single frame 1500lbs hammers were back there as well as the tiny steam hammer which was being kept by the hotel designers.. 

They also had self contained hammers of which there was only 1 left.. 

Thanks for the input..  I'll have to check out the vid's On Scot's

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I  forgot to mention that when our hammers were converted to air they redid the seals. The seals for air hammers have a closer fit than those for steam hammers. I' sure you can run them on air without this alteration but they won' be as efficient. 

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Patrick from the parts diagram I have it doesn't show any other piston ring..  Also not mentioned in any of the articles as it states the hammers are steam or air operation..  I to thought this weird also the fact that lubrication wasn't altered or added.. 

Do you know How or what they switched to?  I've seen the rings in person and they are a pretty wide setup..

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  • 8 months later...

The prices on the hammers were reasonable..  The larger machines for upsetting and such went for way over my budget but I imagine that for someone in the steel industry buying an 8" upsetter it was a solid deal.. some of these machines are 450K and up so to get it for 200k is a steel.. :) 

The smaller hammers were going in the 500 to 2500.00 range.. 

The load out added subtantually  as did transport.. From boston to middle MAss was 7K... This would have brought the cost of the hammer I wanted to near 10k with transport and then I was told the setup fee's would be tacked on, and then getting a several compressors to power it.. 

I was contacted by a gentleman looking for foundation blue prints as the EPA stepped in and said Not 1 inch of soil could be moved as it was laced with PCB's.. 

The foundations for the smaller hammers are actually quite light by comparisions with mechanical hammers and were only bolted down in a few spots on top of the cribbing.. 

I asked the guy to get back to me about the move and such but most of the corps are about what they want so rarely hear back once they have the info.. 

I'd love to find a smaller Erie hammer, but they are about as rare as that willy wonka golden ticket..   Right place, right time, right people you know.. 

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