Navy Hammer sell off

[jlpservicesinc]

I was looking at buying a commercial hydraulic press and came across an Auction for Older Steam hammers in the 3000  range.. 

I almost want to buy one, but I don't have a clue as to how much air it would take to make one run..  I used to have a compressor that put out 100cfm at 100psi but it's long gone now.. 

I was looking at the Erie open frame  or so.. What size compressor would I need to drive one of these? 

Brochure Proof - 4 Pager - FINAL.pdf

[Latticino]

Why not just go for a steam boiler?  

[JHCC]

But would it fit in the trailer?

[Frosty]

You'll need one that can run several jack hammers, think trailer mounted diesel compressor, supplying a road crew SIZE.

They don't work as well on compressed air as steam. Steam is interesting stuff as pressure tries to drop it flashes to a much higher pressure. The old engineers would wire the pressure release valves closed,  not to get the boiler to make more pressure but to keep them from opening, dropping the pressure in the boiler and flashing the steam to LIVE steam and blowing the boiler to bits.

So when the hammer driver opens the valve squirting steam at 10-15 psi into one of these brutes and the tup begins to move, the volume of the steam cylinder increases and the steam flashes live. The pressure pushing the tup actually increases as it travels.

Compressed air does the opposite, as volume increases pressure drops in direct relation, 2v = .5 psi so you need a lot more psi and volume to drive these on air.

If only that were the whole story. A power boiler (as opposed to a heater) and the attending system have to pass regular inspections, especially if they're mobile. Insurance will probably be significant as well, that I don't know. A large portable compressor is a LOT easier to keep legal and safe and there are probably lots being surplussed for reasonable.

The only guy I knew who had direct experience converting a steam hammer to air passed away a few years ago but he had quite a bit of conversion data so I have to assume it's out there somewhere. I do know he had a 500 lb. steamer and he spent years and several trips to the hospital getting it functioning.. The ambulance rides were more a matter of his working style than the equipment. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty, I knew or know a few things about steam, but it's all hearsay or stuff I have read in little blurbs here or there and what you wrote is the same things I have heard.. 

Steam has a lot more punch vs compressed air.. there is also an expansion ratio one can expect with steam..  Most steam boilers are only good up to about 15psi unless it's a true  pressure vessel for steam machinery. 

I called them and the preview 7am-10am Monday morning in Boston right on the water..  If you guys knew just how bad traffic time is then, .. argh..   I was like who would schedule it for that time slot.. 

I plan on going so will take lots of pictures..   Most the equipment here won't ever be seen in the same setting again..  They also have a few rolling mills, 

 

[Frosty]

We ran boilers in trucks to thaw drains, cut ice in ditches, etc. and they got inspected regularly. It was rated as 15 hp. and was easily able to produce 150 psi. but it was made to produce quantity rather than punch. The inspectors used to do their checks when we were thawing so they didn't have to fire them up themselves, there is a shut down procedure that takes longer than bringing them up. I believe boilers are rated in horse power not pressure, btu, volume, etc. IIRC.

One pretty darned exciting test is of the over pressure systems. With the boiler at working pressure, about 30 psi at idle we opened the valve to the stinger, a long steel pipe on a hose to thaw manholes, etc. Open the valve and the boiler pressure climbs to 100 +psi. The exciting test was with the valves closed they watch the gauges for about 5 minutes then open one emergency pressure release, the popoff or popper valve. A alarm goes off and the psi jumps to well over 250 psi and 5 other emergency pressure release valves POP open, sounds like gunshots. So, there we are backing away slowly from a 20' box van with a screaming steaming demon, alarm bells and horns blasting. Then it stops. The REAL emergency shut down measure is to shut off the fuel and with all the valves open it quiets down in a couple few minutes.

It's an awesome experience and one these guys do for a living. I picked up the wet to live steam  phase shift with a pressure drop from the talkative one while the other, junior inspector, did the paper work certifying the boiler. I think a 15 hp. diesel fired boiler would run that hammer no sweat just stand back when the inspector does his thing!  It's worth watching though. 

I don't envy you your rush hour drive Monday though I'd love to take a look. Were I looking at the chore I'd leave early enough to beat rush hour and hang out at a coffee shop till time to inspect the sale offerings. That's me though I HATE rush hour traffic, did it for too many years.

It's funny how talking brings back memories I didn't remember having. If that makes sense. Anyway, I can remember the experience like I was there. One last one, the FD showed up for the giant fire. Motorists were calling 911 from blocks away. The inspector forgot to tell the 911 dispatcher and FD they were inspecting the steam thaw truck. Oops! It must've made half a block disappear in a cloud of steam. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Latticino]

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

I believe boilers are rated in horse power not pressure, btu, volume

Fairly sure that HP ratings are for larger boilers only (also for hot water units). Smaller, typically low pressure steam boilers are still rated in psi/pounds per hr/btuh I believe  (particularly those under 15 psi).  Low pressure steam isn't that hard to deal with. See it all the time in older facilities for heating systems with cast iron radiators. Would have to research further to check where the breakpoint is for requiring an certified operator, but wouldn't be surprised if it was over 15 psi.

[CMS3900]

I have seen Matt Harris's Niles Bement-Pond 750 run, and it has been converted to air.  He uses 1,000 gallon propane tanks for the cushion tank and a large engine driven compressor, like 750 CFM.  He acquired a large 3 phase rotary screw compressor in the 40 HP range and plans to convert over to it.  These hammers work hard, and it comes down to how many points of maintenance and failure you want to deal with.  While a boiler is great, and can double for steaming crabs and clams, it's a whole other bag of worms.  If your boiler goes down in the middle of the job you've got issues.  If your compressor goes out you call a equipment rental company and have them drop one off.

[Latticino]

Got no dog in this fight, as they say, but just want to mention that many equipment companies also rent portable boilers...  Still have no idea what the pressure and pounds per hour (PPH) requirements are for hammers like this,but am curious. 

[Frosty]

On 4/21/2018 at 8:45 AM, Latticino said:

Fairly sure that HP ratings are for larger boilers only (also for hot water units). Smaller, typically low pressure steam boilers are still rated in psi/pounds per hr/btuh I believe  (particularly those under 15 psi).  

That sounds right,  the boiler in our house generates almost no pressure it circulates water to the hot water heater tank and baseboard heat. The hot water heater is a heat exchanger we don't get it directly from the boiler though we could've gone that route. It gets inspected if we need to have it serviced which is rarely.

Nothing like the steam thaw boilers, you could steam a moose with one.

I see we're typing at the same time. I didn't know you could rent boilers, makes sense though especially where things like storm drains or city water can freeze. A lot of gated communities are on their own here. Hmmmm.

Frosty The Lucky.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I believe I still have the brochures from when Mare Island Naval Shipyard sold off their forge shop. I saw the hammers running during a family day years ago with my Dad who was a nuclear pipe prepping instructor the last 10 years he worked there. Very impressive. If I remember right they all went very inexpensively as the moving costs were so high. 

[ThomasPowers]

Christopher Thomson  of Christopher Thomson Ironworks has an Erie converted to compressed air; you might chat with him about it.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks Thomas, I called and left a message for him.. 


Well, I drove out there this morning  got there just as the guy was opening the doors..   The whole area is now modern and not one real section is Navy yard any longer.. While it is modernized the whole vibe is City campus vs Navy yard..  Was neat seeing some of the buldings but then they were also modernized.. 

After the visit, I am having very mixed emotions about the whole experience..  Sad, angry, Frustrated, envious,  Disappointed,  

All these feelings really have nothing to do with what I had seen but more a reflection in myself and being at a cross roads in ones journey..    

I'd love to own 1 of the 1500lbs hammers.. But the reality of the whole thing is both the cost of auction, removal, transport, foundation, a way to power it.. It will not ever pay me back.. 

I'd love to setup an Anvil forging station once the shop goes up and this would fit into that role perfectly but the reality of it is , it's fruitless..   Casting an anvil while it's neat.. Forging and anvil would be way cooler. LOL..  

Anyhow I took a bunch of photo's and a bunch of video.. . I'll post it to FB as the files are huge.. 

I found out, the area/building itself is in the protection of the Historical landmarks  registry and the building as well as the stuff inside was bought or given to a corp who is going to make it into a Hotel..   The largest of the forging hammers  as well as a 1000ton forging press will be left in position as center pieces. (these are covered in plastic).   They also have a small 50lbs or 100lbs Steam powered hammer which was covered in Plastic which they are keeping.( I would have loved this)..

From what I can see, the place was picked over either illegally or if you were in the "Know" as any of the smaller forging hammer had previously been removed..  There was only 1 self contained air hammer left..  Previously sold.. but still on sight waiting rigging.. The anvil was all ready removed.. 

If I have an unlimited budget or money coming in from the forging stuff I'd get one of these>> 
 

[Frosty]

I'm not sure what to say Jenifer. I'm sad and glad, sad it doesn't look like a good chance auction but glad you've come to a realization of having practical aims and goals. 

I've thought it'd be a very cool, maybe even profitable enterprise to cast anvils based on the Fisher model under an Alaskan trademark. but I keep getting brought up by the practicality of it. Sure I could build a cupola and set up mold making, preheating and a casting rig, put it all on wheels even. 

Seriously, use lost foam and induction for the preheat and I wouldn't need the double mold system Fisher used. 

The problem though was my paycheck job and the amount of time and money even a test casting would cost. Compete against the established anvil makers on a speculation trial basis as a solo operation? Fun dream, I still day dream about it. 

With a big enough hammer and handling machinery forging anvils is certainly doable. Going to hire help or go solo? I think it's probably a more practical thing than my cast anvil day dream.

Still. . . .

I have a 50 lb LG and it's a real work horse but I'd dearly LOVE a 50-100 self contained, I even cast a footing thick section of shop floor just in case.  Who knows maybe someday eh?

All my best Jenifer, I'm pulling for you.

Frosty The Lucky.

[HammerMonkey]

Frosty... the sign of the eternal optimist... pouring a thick footing just in case. I did the same thing .

Jen, I hope the crossroad you are at won't take you away from the anvil, and especially teaching/helping. You are highly valued and appreciated!

[jlpservicesinc]

42 minutes ago, HammerMonkey said:

Frosty... the sign of the eternal optimist... pouring a thick footing just in case. I did the same thing .

Jen, I hope the crossroad you are at won't take you away from the anvil, and especially teaching/helping. You are highly valued and appreciated!

Thanks .    Oh, no.. I'll be here adding what I can..   

I used to have a dream of what I'd like to do when i growd up..   LOL..  I'm all growd up now and I see reality and desire in conflict.. 

I used to be able to do things fairly inexpensively and with projects of this magnitude one really has to ask themselves " What is the cost to benefit ratio"..  I all ready own a 200lbs hammer which is to small for anvil making.. LOL.. 

I started looking at forging presses which don't need the substantial bases as a hammer with a greater capacity.. but then you need a much larger  press vs hammer,  Then the problems becomes outright price.. 

A section of  4130 or 1060 in a 5X14X 24" section is nearly 1000.00... So the reality of the whole thing is saddening..   1000.00 for materials,  on a hammer this big you need at least 1 other helper and then a hammer operator... Heat treat and the learning curve that goes with that unless you send it out..   All said and done it will be about 3-4K just for one anvil..  Not including any equipment.. ..   

[HammerMonkey]

2 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I used to have a dream of what I'd like to do when i growd up..   LOL..  I'm all growd up now and I see reality and desire in conflict.. 

Truth^^ When I was young my dream was to run a wrecking ball, or maybe something with a flame thrower... but the ol' desire vs reality thing squashed those plans! lol.

[jlpservicesinc]

Ok,  I can see my bank roll is no where it needs to be..   Rigging has to be handled by Hallomore  for them to rig it, truck it to my place and unload it it s 6900.00..  While this could be a great price even if it sold for 5 or 10K without some sort of way to power it it could easily be another 10K on top of that..  I could find a cheaper solution if time wasn't a factor.. 

A new power hammer would be in the running at that price point though for the 1500lbs hammer size I could never ever touch it.. 

So, that removes any doubts i had about not getting it..  

The Gentleman Thomas told me about called me back and he has a 500lbs unit with a 600gallon storage unit with a gasoline powered dual head compressor.. He said if he is using it intermittently his 5hp compressor works but he also has another storage unit.. 

So I figure the 1500lbs hammer would use 4 to 6X the amount of compressed air.... 

[marcusb]

480 CFM for the 1500 pounder  at 80 psi. 

According to my 4th edition pocket reference

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

5 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I used to have a dream of what I'd like to do when i growd up..

Same here, at 75 I'm still dreaming. Wise words from someone (can't remember who) "You will never grow old, if you never grow up". I'm beginning to believe it.

[jlpservicesinc]

LOL..   That is a monster of a compressor.. I used to have a V4  duel stage that would have been close.. It had 8" primaries and a 6" secondary..  I figured it would take a 70HP to keep it running so bought a Diesel fuel injected 4 cylinder on a test bed fixture and was going to mate the 2 together.. ( When moving the flywheel by hand it sounded like a monster out of a movie with a huge sucking sound then a wha thump) turning over by hand with just grabbing the fly wheel which was 4ft in diameter) This was back in the late 90s.. 

I think it put out 450cfm at 100psi..  It was rated to 125psi  It was a constant run compressor was near the size of a VW beetle.  it was really neat.. Huge front mount intercooler..  Came out of a factory and was the main compressor for the whole place.. 

[Frosty]

So how about a trip hammer Jenifer? All you need is a: long beam, a log will do, a pivot, a hammer head and a cog wheel. 1,500 lbs would be a piece of cake. Don't even need a water wheel, an old car will do it. No positrack please!

Hmmmm? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[beaudry]

This is a such an absolute classic blacksmith discussion;  about spending  $20,000 [ $50,000 ? ] and months [ years ?] of ''free '' time to forge a $1,000 anvil.

Great to see the pictures of the shop, thanks for sharing.  It would have been amazing to see it in its heyday

[beaudry]

 I meant to ask , if this Navy shop is being closed down, is that kind of heavy forge work still required by the Navy ? and if so is it being done in house at another more modern facility or subbed out to private contractors ? or are they turning more towards all the sophisticated high speed computer driven cutting , welding, forming ,machining and 3D printing technologies available today ?

It seems as if there are lots of listings for industrial heavy forging equipment being sold off or scrapped outright . Is it being replaced with something else or jobbed out overseas like so many things to countries where people are still willing to work  hard for low wages  in hellish conditions ? 

[bajajoaquin]

My knowledge of steam power is much less than others here, consisting of having spent a few hours helping with the startup procedure and then 10 minutes driving a 1910-ish Moline steam tractor.

Having said that, it would not surprise me to find out that the inspection regimen is less onerous and spectacular than described for steam cleaning and thawing equipment. The boilers used on the tractors are inspected by pressurizing them with air when they're full of water. with only a small volume of compressible air in the boiler, a leak or failure is indicated by a small stream of water, and not an explosive decompression of the vessel.

I'll see if I can remember to go through my piles of papers, but I seem to recall that they operated at 125psi new, but the way they kept them in service was to run them (at reduced power) at 100PSI, and they expected to be reducing that pressure in the future as they aged. I'm not quite sure what that says about the boiler needed for a steam hammer, but it at least implies to me that it's a different circumstance than is being described above.

Also, not at all related to this discussion, but interesting is that there are few or no original steam tractors still around from some of the Plains states because of the mineral makeup of the water. It accelerated corrosion of the boilers.