UK Knife Law - Updated

[Frosty]

Young sheltered and generally ignorant folk think "things" do the work. How many times do we hear a beginner say s/he NEEDS X tool to forge a something or other? Uh . . .Can't turn a scroll or ring without a horn, etc. you know the type. 

Guns, knives, etc. are the killers. Not the people. All you have to do is outlaw dangerous things and you're safe!  Remember Pres. Clinton saying they were going to make anything that can be made to explode a controlled substance? That was right after the first World Trade Tower bombing and the public was shocked to discover fertilizer and fuel oil makes a fine explosive. Once he told us they were going to take control of anything that CAN explode the uproar died away.

Were it a serious bit of legislation I can just see the reaction to having to register to buy a "Strictly controlled!" quantity of: flour, powdered sugar, Coffee Mate, sawdust floor dry, etc. Gasoline, diesel, propane? Surely you Jest!

The current uproar about Face Book is laughable if it weren't a distraction our Gvt. is using to keep us from making them do their jobs. Only a teenager or idiot would put info on FB they didn't want it open knowledge around the world at the speed of light . Bouncing off a satellite is slower but still. People covet "likes" as if they were gold when all they are is a tally of how many people have access to your info.  Advertising is how FB makes it's money and selling mailing lists . . . same same. Data miners pay a use fee I'm sure. None of this is a secret, anymore than replying to spam is a bad idea.

I refuse to load APPS on my Iphone nor will I let Apple hook me up with I Pay. Yeah, just what I want, the convenience of not having to stop at a register to buy . . . stuff. Just walk out the door and let the sensors debit my acct. Like nobody is already planning on emptying folk's accts using the app.

Don't put ANYTHING on a computer connected to the web you don't want public info.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Buzzkill]

12 minutes ago, JustAnotherViking said:

In the middle of London in a busy street and doing it just because you can? Yeah, I'd say people have the right to feel uncomfortable. 

That's a sad commentary on the state of the "civilized" world imho.

[JustAnotherViking]

Always have been 'controlled' areas of congregation as far as weapons are concerned. 

Churches, market towns, castles, and plenty of other places where people historically would have always been expected to disarm before entering, nothing new about that. 

[Buzzkill]

Fair enough.  I just don't consider a folding knife with a 3 inch or less cutting edge a weapon. To me anyone who would feel uncomfortable about a person quietly peeling/slicing an apple with the aforementioned tool, whether in the middle of nowhere or the middle of town, probably needs to seek professional help for paranoia.

[JHCC]

29 minutes ago, Buzzkill said:

I just don't consider a folding knife with a 3 inch or less cutting edge a weapon.

My tai chi teacher used to say that it's the knife that's easiest to conceal that's the most dangerous.

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, JHCC said:

My tai chi teacher used to say that it's the knife that's easiest to conceal that's the most dangerous.

My sensei held it's the person not the weapon. Ever see someone who knows what they're doing with a rolled up comic book? I didn't study the martial arts to make things dangerous. I studied the arts to reduce the danger from other people, not their stuff.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Jerry, try your favorite dog eared paper back novel, hold it by the open side with the corner nestled in your palm, I know a jock from highschool who hasn’t forgotten me in 35 years...

[Frosty]

A soda straw is more difficult to apply but can be pretty . . . bad. 

There's an endless selection. I think I've thought about this stuff long enough.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

as  a martial artist and a former EMT,  I can state positively that a simple box cutter is plenty to kill, so are bare hands if you want to get picky,  the Human body is very fragile. 

NEXT SUBJECT....

[1forgeur]

I see a difference between the thought processes here. Seems most from the other side of the pond think in terms of weapons and us guys over here think of them as tools. Personally I have never thought of a knife as more than a tool because that's all I have ever HAD to use one for and I never leave the house without one. Must be the Eagle Scout in me or maybe the monoliths on this side of the pond were somehow different? IMHO

[JustAnotherViking]

A lot of it is to do with the context and location.

The UK is a densely populated place, so most of these laws have been a result of gang violence in inner cities, where the the intent of carrying is usually for intimidation and attack.

A chef on his way to work? - tool
A 15 year old with a kitchen knife tucked into his sock, outside a school? 'Sorry officer, I just needed to peel my apple'... - weapon

 

Similarly the same logic can be applied to a hammer.

In a bag with other blacksmithing tools - it's a tool.
In your hand and waving it around in a very public area... what possible sane reason would you have for doing that.

 

Pretty much boils down to ridiculous laws being passed to deal with ridiculous situations and people.
Anyone with a legitimate reason for holding a tool doesn't have anything to fear or change... anyone with malicious intent has less of a chance of getting away with a crime because of a technicality "it's just a tool, not a weapon, honest".

[1forgeur]

Exactly.  Nuff said

[Daswulf]

So far no one has come up with an intentometer. Implements change and people stay the same. Can't rubber pad room the world. 

[ThomasPowers]

Really want to boil it down?  Take a look at a prison's confiscated weapons collection, a 1/4" blade can kill.

On the other hand I've seen some shivs where I thought that the maker should have a career as a decent knife maker on the outside.

[JustAnotherViking]

Don't forget about the deadly broadsheet newspaper!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millwall_brick

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes DAs, in the western world we confuse are selves as to what the human animal is compared to what we wish it was. Homo sapien sapien is in reality a very smart upright walking ape. To expect anything different one must raise the little apelings with equal measures of love and dissaplin. Se to their proper education in not only the 3 R’s but also art, philosipy and littiture. That how you get thinking human beings. Our societies want human beings who can over come their base instinks but they want to skimp on the work. So laws are passed based on what we which we were as aposed to what we are. 

Some liken it to sheep and wolves, the sheep are afraid of the wolves so they chain up the sheep dogs.  

[ThomasPowers]

Hard to judge intent; easy to judge possession.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Certainly seems to be a difference in US and British legal philosophy. 

out of respect for Glenn and co, and for my own sanity (what’s left of it) I will refrain from expressing any more deal philisophical thoughts on emotional law making

[Buzzkill]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherViking said:

Pretty much boils down to ridiculous laws being passed to deal with ridiculous situations and people.
Anyone with a legitimate reason for holding a tool doesn't have anything to fear or change...

If only this were true.  It boils down to intent, whether we are talking about a person with an object that could be misused or a law which could be misused when convenient.  Given enough time and opportunity anything that can happen will happen.

Just like a blacksmith who has access to many hammers, but will have a "go to" hammer, those who are willing to (or desire to) hurt others will also have favorite tools.  Removal of the favorite tool in either case will result in the next favorite tool being used.  Criminals can be quite inventive in creating their own tools as mentioned above and so can blacksmiths.  In both cases it is impossible to remove or prohibit everything that could possibly be used to achieve the goals of the person in question.  In other words you will never eliminate crime by removing the most often used tools, and *something* will always be the most used tool.  That makes the whole endeavor an endless and ineffective task.  You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps no matter how long or strong you make the bootstraps. You can't get to your destination by traveling further down the wrong road.  If you've thinned out your material too much when drawing a taper then hitting it harder is not going to fix the problem. When the basic premise is flawed, investing more time, money, and/or energy on solutions that don't address the underlying issues is wasted.

 

[JustAnotherViking]

I'd have to disagree. 

UK gun control laws are very tight by comparison to elsewhere due to misuse. I can't just own one because I want to, or because I'm living in a dangerous area. 

Could I still go out and get a couple? Absolutely. Hand guns, shotguns, rifles, semi autos, pretty much whatever. 

I could join a gun club with a registered shooting range, or for the purpose of pest control on farm land. Each has a set of specific reasonable circumstances where they are permitted, and I'm fine with that. 

More hoops to jump through, but it doesn't prevent me from getting my hands on a tool for a legitimate use. 

Same with anything else that is considered dangerous and has laws restricting ownership and use. 

There are always legitimate reasons and exemptions. 

[Buzzkill]

I fear we may have already stepped over the boundary regarding politics here.

What was the goal of the tight restrictions on gun ownership?  What are the goals regarding the knife laws?  If it is merely to decrease the number of incidents involving those specific tools then it could be argued they are somewhat effective.  However, if the goal was to reduce the *total* incidents of crime I think with a little research you'll find there has been little to no change which indicates failed policies. If you still have the same number of people killed, assaulted, robbed,  etc. per 100,000 people. after the removal of specific objects then what has been accomplished?

If you wish I'm happy to discuss this further, but as I said we're probably going too far for the guidelines on this forum.

[JustAnotherViking]

Given that I am not a politician nor lawmaker, I can only speculate on the intent in the UK. 

Could be public appeasement, could be reduction of incidents. 

As you say, ban one thing, they pick up the next, but it does effectively reduce incidents of the first problem, but not the underlying issue. 

I guess it's trying to reduce the liklihood of spontaneous crime by making potentially dangerous items harder to get hold of without very deliberate premeditation. 

[basher]

I am hoping there is a sensible work around to allow people who are over 18 to still purchase knives ( with a suitable ID check to confirm age ....as I have been doing since I started ) and have them sent somewhere at least close to them. If not then a lot of us  makers are in trouble. In an amazon  world where people expect to have stuff at their dorstep now, I fear it will have a large impact on makers sales even if there is some kind of work around.....

 Fingers crossed. I am glad that I also run classes as well as Make and sell stuff!

[Smoggy]

This is only a list of preliminary suggestions intruth and will be 'kicked about' to find some sort of ballance. The porpose of posting such information on the Gov. website is to give those with a vested interest the oportunity to come forth and offer input. Ideally a Bladesmith Accossiation should approah and outline what members already do to ensure minors do not have access to products and how some legislation my impact on the trade.

[basher]

alas there is no such entity as an assoc.....we have tried.....and it was tried again 20 years before....As I understand it the input stage is now passed and a lot of us gave input...and the GOV has confirmed that they are going ahead with passing the law. The same thing happened with the curved sword ban which  passed anyway despite most parties including the police deeming it unworkable.