Please help me finish my forge burner design

[Zach Wolpa]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum, so hopefully I'm posting this in the right place. Setting up my first legit propane forge and decided to take a crack at building some homemade burners as well. Burner specs are as follows:

• 1"x6" SS nozzle/burner tip
• 1" to 3/4" SS reducer coupling
• 3/4"x8" black steel nipple
• 1.5" to 3/4" black steel reducer coupling
• 1/8"X4" brass nipple with end cap, tapped for MIG tip
• MIG tip

From the 1/8" nipple, my connection assembly is as follows:

• 1/8" to 1/4" brass hex bushing
• 1/4" brass tee
• Winters 2" Lead Free Pressure Gauge, (0 to 30 psi) Model #PEM206LF, here's a link: https://www.grainger.com/product/WINTERS-2-Lead-Free-Pressure-Gauge-36TV97?cm_sp=Product_Details-_-Products_Based_on_Your_Search-_-IDPPLARECS&cm_vc=IDPPLARECS
• 1/4" to 1/4" brass close nipple/hex
• 1/4" to 3/8" needle valve
• Propane hose with 30PSI regulator
• Home Depot style propane tank gas level indicator

I taped everything with PTFE except the 1/8" burner nipple as I'm not sure what the final orientation will be. I'm building three of these, and already have 2 prefab'd burners and I wanted some versatility as I have 2 forges (1 paint can, 1 large custom homemade) and a foundry and would like to move and swap the burners. Regardless, did the soapy water test and fired this bad boy up for the first time (outside the forge) to test my madness. The burner worked like a champ outside the forge, but I have some concerns and I'm thinking about making some modifications to the connection assembly and would like to make 2 or three more.

So here are my main questions:

1) Does anyone know if the Winters pressure gauge noted above is safe for use with propane? I think I googled 30 PSI propane pressure gauge and that's what came up. When I went back to order the next couple for my future connections, I noticed the website says it's for use with "Plumbing, Heating, Air Conditioning, Pneumatic, Water Tanks, Air Compressors." I'm assuming it's fine, but wanted to see if anyone on here thinks I should look for something else.

2) I placed the pressure gauge between the needle valve and the burner so I could have better control of the gas flow. Are there any issues with this?

3) Thinking about adding shutoff cocks between the needle valve and the regulator/propane tank, but not sure if this would be redundant with the needle valve?

4) So that I may easily move the connection assembly to different burners and avoid damaging the connections, wondering if:

   A) A quick connect could be added to the 1/8" burner nipple, or

   If I should tape the 1/8" to 1/4" hex bushing to the burner nipple, add an additional 1/4" close nipple and then a quick connect, or

   C) If I should add a quick connect before the needle valve/shutoff cock, or

   D) Are quick connects just a bad idea? 

5) Also thinking about setting up a dual burner for the large forge. The concept would be the same as 2 of both the burner and the connection assemblies outlined above, but add:

   A) Brass 3/8" FIP to 1/4" MIP fitting to

   Brass 1/4" elbow to

   C) Brass 1/4"x1.5" nipple to

   D) Brass 1/4" tee (repeat A-C on opposite side of tee) to

   E) Brass 1/4"x4" nipple to 1/4" shutoff cock to

   F) Brass 1/4" MIP to flared 3/8" MIP fitting | or | Brass 1/4"xClose nipple to 1/4" FIP to flared 3/8" MIP fitting 

Is this a bad idea? Would it be better to just find a Y or T fitting for the propane tank and run 2 hoses and regulators (prefer not to have too many hoses)? for 5A, are there any variables I should consider for the flared 3/8 side of the needle valve? For 5F, are there any special considerations for the 3/8" connection to the propane hose besides flared?

At the end of the day, I'm not opposed to having multiple hoses and just moving the hoses between burners as necessary. Photo of my current assembly is attached. Any assistance/advice is greatly appreciated. Comments on other parts of my design are also welcome.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome to IFI. I always suggest this thread to get the best out of the forum.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53873-read-this-first/

I'm sure the experts will be along with suggestions on your burners.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Zach, glad to have you. Who's burner plans are you using? That's who I'd be asking my questions.

I can't say much about your burner listing parts in that manner doesn't tell me much but I'm a TBI survivor so I have issues other folk don't.

The picture looks over complicated but I'm seeing so many burners I'd swear won''t work, work beautifully I don't have a legitimate opinion.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Every burner in my book had a parts list, but they were to only part of the construction plans and were accompanied by a description and drawing of each burner. Lately, I have seen several guys list their burner parts like it replaces all those other things.

The first thing we all want to know is what kind of burner design you are building; if it isn't a well-established design than we want a carefully executed drawing of what you propose or a photo of the burner you are trying to copy. Could we figure out what you are trying to construct from a parts list? I don't know anyone willing to work that hard.

BTW pressure guage are only usefull when connected to a regulator (via a "T" fitting on yours); they do not belong connected to needle valves.

[Latticino]

Couple of quick comments:

1. Is that an adjustable regulator?  Doesn't look like one and that is what you need.  The needle valve is a poor substitute.
2. Are you strictly following an established burner design, or modifying it (even slightly)?  If the latter, are you prepared for the experimentation that you will need to do to get it to work well (or even adequately) and do you have enough experience with gas forges to know the difference?  If the former, why not ask the designer?
3. Your 6" SS nozzle appears to add far too much burner length to the system, and is not easily adjustable like a more conventional slide over flare.  NA burners are very sensitive to small changes in geometry.
4. How are you planning on fixing your gas orifice into the inducer section?  Will it be adjustable, obscure too much of the air inlet...?
5. Personally I prefer a 1/4 turn quick shutoff valve in my gas stream for a safety shutoff, YMMV

[ThomasPowers]

If you are copying EXACTLY a known good design; then asking the folks who design and build them is ok.  If you are designing your own---then you should already know enough to figure things out on your own and asking for help should be considered like hiring an expert consultant for work. (You are asking an expert for 1 on 1 help that is not applicable to other people.)

So far the picture looks like you spent more on stuff not needed than is required for a burner of known design.

What you need: connector to propane tank----adjustable regulator----hose to burner----burner     (on my systems the pressure gauge is connected as part of the regulator, but I've plugged them off as they get damaged as I adjust my burners by eye and ear) I do have a simple shut off ball valve just before the burner; but seldom use it. I turn the system off with the tank valve.

Having a pressure gauge between the propane tank and regulator is useless; it would measure tank pressure and not pressure delivered to the burner.

Is the regulator adjustable? (is it a 0-30 psi regulator or just a 30 psi regulator?  Makes a big difference)

Where are you at?  I built my propane forges about 20 years ago at a forge building workshop put on by an ABANA affiliate. Building to a known good design we did something like 16 of them in one Saturday, chalked a number on each one and then drew who got which.  It's about time I rebuild the NA one; it's been relined a bunch of times but after several decades of rough travel it needs some TLC to get it running as efficiently as possible before I retire.

[Zach Wolpa]

Wow! This is awesome, you guys are rock stars, thanks for all of the quick responses! Lot's of questions, so I'll do my best to answer:

1. In terms of whose burner plans I'm using, I have to give the Ron Reil (who credits Russ Vulo and Derry Cook) burner design credit for my inspiration. That said, I've been thinking about doing this for a couple of years, so I've read a ton, watched at least 15 different videos, took ideas from several different designs and tried to create a concept for the burner body and jet pipe that seemed the simplest. So, I'm not really following a specific design, and definitely not using an instruction manual. I'm really taking pieces from different concepts that seemed to make the most sense to me. A lot of guys have made modifications to the Ron Reil design, so I started there and tried to develop a concept that I could build quick, easy, and cheap.  I like experimenting, and this seemed like a great way to learn how gas forges work. A few examples of the modifications to the burner design itself:
   • I've seen the jet pipe installed in the 1.5" bell several different ways, many use set screws, an elbow, and a hole drilled through the end cap which seemed over complicated to me. I have a drill press, so it was pretty easy to drill a hole straight through and large enough for the 1/8" nipple which seemed like a much more simple method (and I think more in line with the Ron Reil design), plus it allows for the intake to be pretty much wide open.
   • I saw that instead of drilling a #60 hole in the jet pipe, some have tapped and added a MIG tip, this made so much sense to me because it reduces the wear on the nipple and also makes it much easier to confirm that the jet is correctly centered in the burner.
   • I've also seen at least 3 different ways of adding a choke, a bunch involved welding pieces to the end of the 1.5" bell which I really didn't like. I don't think I'll need a choke, but went ahead and drilled and tapped the rim of the 1.5" bell and added a short #6 SS screw so I could attach a tuna can lid if I want a choke down the road. 
2. This means that I don't really have a specific design author who I can contact with questions. I also kind of assume Mr. Reil gets bombarded with silly questions, however I really appreciate the advice to contact the design author because I did go back and looked at a Ron Reil burner drawing and noticed that he drilled and tapped holes for set screws in the rim above the intake hole in the 1.5" bell to "lock" the jet tube. With the MIG tip, the jet tube definitely wants to spin so I soldered the first one, but on the next I'll probably add the set screws. I think this (and inserting the 1/8" nipple directly into the 1.5" bell) is called the "Bordeaux" modification, credit to Robert Bordeaux. So, I'm making modifications to modifications, to modifications and I've read a ton of posts on here and thought this would be a good forum for a discussion with the experts. 
3. I can definitely appreciate how it would be difficult to envision my concept by the parts list alone which is why I attached a photo, but admittedly it was poor resolution. I've attached a "carefully executed" drawing to this post help clarify.
4. Now to respond directly to some of the other questions:

Frosty, I agree that I may have gotten "fitting" happy and may have over complicated the burner attachment assembly which is why I worry about adding anything else (like a shutoff cock). BTW, I think I read on another post that your up in Kodiak, I do work up there and visit about every 3 months.

Mikey98118 and Thomas Powers,  I think you may disagree with each other regarding the pressure gauge location. But I think what I here you both saying is that the pressure gauge is pretty much useless anyways and most adjust with their eyes and ears. Makes sense, but I'm a noob so thought it would be good to have one so I can learn how to tune a little easier. Seemed like adding it after the needle valve also made sense so I could get a better understanding of what 5PSI sounds like versus 25PSI and make adjustments on the fly. The regulator I'm using is also fixed at 30PSI, so I think what Mikey is actually saying is that with an adjustable regulator, it would be better to add directly to the regulator instead of after the needle valve. I'll pick up an adjustable regulator for the next build.  BTW I'm in Seattle, Alki Beach, a little far from Thomas (would love to check out your shop thought), but Mikey, hit me up if you're going to subpop's birthday party this weekend.

13 hours ago, Latticino said:

Couple of quick comments:

1. Is that an adjustable regulator?  Doesn't look like one and that is what you need.  The needle valve is a poor substitute.
2. Are you strictly following an established burner design, or modifying it (even slightly)?  If the latter, are you prepared for the experimentation that you will need to do to get it to work well (or even adequately) and do you have enough experience with gas forges to know the difference?  If the former, why not ask the designer?
3. Your 6" SS nozzle appears to add far too much burner length to the system, and is not easily adjustable like a more conventional slide over flare.  NA burners are very sensitive to small changes in geometry.
4. How are you planning on fixing your gas orifice into the inducer section?  Will it be adjustable, obscure too much of the air inlet...?
5. Personally I prefer a 1/4 turn quick shutoff valve in my gas stream for a safety shutoff, YMMV

1. You are correct, it's not an adjustable regulator, it's fixed at 30PSI. The hose, regulator, and needle valve were all purchased from Jim Fox at Thermal Art Design as part of his "burner kit": http://www.thermalartdesign.com/new-template/burner-kits, do you think I wasted my money? Could you explain why an adjustable regulator is preferred?
2. Kind of explained above, but as mentioned, I love experimenting and look forward to doing so. I'm sure I'll be back looking for advice for preferred PSI for different types of work pieces, etc. I've been playing with homemade gas forges for about 4 years now, started with little propane torches, moved up to MAP gas which was way too specific and hot, and really wanted more control so I could experiment.
3. I definitely agree that the 6" length is too much. I have a couple 1"x3" nipples which definitely work better. One thing I forgot to mention in the original post is that this burner is to be installed in a 1.25" SS mounting tube that I cast into the side of my forge, this adds a second flare which really allows the 6" long nozzle to work well. I also have a 1.5" SS mounting tube behind that so I can take the nozzle off and just use the 3/4" to 1" bell as the flare. I'm more concerned about finalizing the connection assembly so I can safely test these in the forge. I think I'll take what I've built so far and test this weekend. I'll post some photos to provide a better understanding of my overall forge concept (also the result of modifications, to modifications, to modifications and a rebuild to boot)
4. Hopefully the attached drawing clarifies, 1/8" brass nipple tapped in the center for a MIG tip inserted directly in the side of the 1.5" bell, this seemed like the best method to provide the most minimal obstruction to the air inlet.
5. I'm still on the fence, I think I've already complicated this thing enough, but safety first right? Maybe it would be best to go ahead and seal my connection assembly to the burner, then add a quick connect and shutoff cock between the hose and the needle valve.

ZAW BURNER DESIGN Model (1).pdf

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

"Could you explain why an adjustable regulator is preferred?"        Would you buy a car with the accelerator set to a single position?   While running a foundry may be done at 30 PSI; running a forge will need a variable pressure.  Telling you he melted a RRspike with it is NOT GOOD like telling you that your car only runs  at 100 MPH.

A pressure gauge is useful when starting out if it's telling the pressure delivered to the burner and not to the regulator. The picture seemed to indicate it would be installed between the regulator and the propane tank. (Of course with a set pressure regulator a pressure gauge is pretty useless, you know what the pressure downstream of the regulator would be and don't need to know the tank pressure from the propane tank.)

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

49 minutes ago, Zach Wolpa said:

BTW I'm in Seattle, Alki Beach

We won't remember this once we leave this thread, hence  the suggestion to edit your profile to show location as many answers depend on it.

It's my understanding that a pressure gauge for an air compressor will be ruined with propane.

[Frosty]

Zach: You're making a common beginner's mistake in cherry picking bits and pieces from multiple burner "designs" that make sense to you. Have you read the articles by Dunning and Kruger? To be blunt, you don't know enough about burners to design one. What makes sense to you doesn't make sense to folk who know how they work. Seriously, the parts that make sense to you have added so much detrimental trash to yours it'll be a miracle if the flame comes out the right end. 

Forget what you see on Youtube, the vast majority of videos are by people who are clueless but more than willing to tell you they're experts. Unfortunately for folk who don't know enough to sift the wheat from the chaff you can't tell good features from bad.

There are a number of proven burner plans available, there's a list on IFI. Pick ONE set of plans and follow it. Don't make changes, you'll just be rolling the dice. 

NO, a fixed pressure regulator isn't  good thing, I don't care who uses one. Buy a 0-30 psi Red Hat high pressure reg. those really DO work, have for about 40 years on my forge. 

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, discourage you or anything like that. You're making a perfectly natural mistake, we've all done it or something like it more than once. I'd really prefer to see you properly and hopelessly hooked on blacksmithing so you'll post cool pics. 

I'm offering you the benefits of the mistakes I've made so you don't have to repeat them.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Latticino]

1 hour ago, Zach Wolpa said:

do you think I wasted my money? Could you explain why an adjustable regulator is preferred

I haven't looked up what is included in the package or its price, and don't want to step on someone else's business, so I won't comment on that. In my opinion a fixed regulator and downstream needle valve is a poor choice for metering gas feed when adjustable regulators are available and pretty cheap. While the needle valve will also double as a shutoff, I  prefer the use of another cheap fitting designed specifically for that: a 1/4 turn full port gas rated ball valve.  A needle valve can wear out or be damaged much more easily than an adjustable regulator as well.

[Zach Wolpa]

Irondragon Forge & Clay, thanks for the pointers and helping me get started here, I thought my location auto filled with my FB login method, I'll be adding more info to my profile for sure.

Thomas Powers and Latticino, I'll definitely pick up an adjustable regulator for the next build, makes sense to me as it would eliminate the need for the needle valve and a simple shutoff seems to be the safer method. The needle valve I'm using was sold as being a good choice for a forge burner, but now I'm not so sure.

Frosty, "Dunning and Kruger" ha! I'm way smarter than those guys (totally kidding). Look, I'm definitely not trying to pretend like I'm an expert and sincerely appreciate the advice. At the end of the day I'm a mad scientist and truly enjoy building things and experimenting. I'll post a pic or video of the burner I've already built versus an expensive prefab I bought. I do have a pretty good understanding of how this kind of burner works, but admittedly I feel clueless as to how to safely and easily connect it to a 20lb propane tank and have quick pressure control, especially for regular/long term use. There's a lot of conflicting info out there. At least I'm not trying to build a MOT induction heater, yet...

[Mikey98118]

11 hours ago, Latticino said:

Your 6" SS nozzle appears to add far too much burner length to the system, and is not easily adjustable like a more conventional slide over flare.  NA burners are very sensitive to small changes in geometry.

"slide over flare"; you just know I'm going to use this term from now on! Thank you for that one

[Latticino]

Mikey98118, Grin... just couldn't think of the right term, went with descriptive.

Zach Wolpa, You really want to challenge yourself, set it up with a idler circuit and a main gas train on a gas solenoid valve wired into a PID controller using a Type K thermocouple in a ceramic casing for temperature control.  

[Frosty]

Dunning and Kruger weren't describing people "pretending" to know what they don't, they were describing human nature and how people "Think" they know more than they do. The more a person learns the more they realize they don't know.

Here on Iforge, the D&K effect has come to represent folk not knowing enough to evaluate a subject but still coming up with their own "improvements."  

Naturally aspirated burners are actually extremely simple machines but good performance relies on following some basic ratios and precise construction. The "T" burner is a "jet ejector" type NA inducer developed to require the least shop tooling and lowest possible level of shop skills and still produce an efficient burner.

Ron's burner is a "linear" type NA inducer and a little less efficient or robust against outside issues.

There are better home builds and some have gone commercial though not all the ones you can buy online are worth spit though they do function.

Mixing and matching designs has almost always been a recipe for minimal use or outright fails. Your burner as described and drawn doesn't follow the basic ratios at all and in fact in a way to ensure very poor performance if it works at all. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Zach Wolpa]

Frosty if I understand the ratios you’re referencing correctly, then the air intake port area should be 1/4x the burner tube length (8x pipe diameter) or 2x the pipe diameter, and the jet should be .5x diameter from the tube.

I’m using schedule 40, 3/4” black steel for my tube. So my inside diameter is .824”, essentially 7/8”, D = 7/8”. so I went with 8” for my tube length. With the intake and flare fittings, I’m at 7” (8D) in “exposed” tube length between the intake and flare fittings. 

The intake is 1.5” also schedule 40, so  inside diameter = about 1-5/8” (2D). 

As built, my MIG tip ends up at 3/8” from the top of the tube (.5D)

the only thing that may be off is the tube length. 7” isn’t available at the local hw store, but I’m gonna cut down a 9” piece I have and see if I get better results. I may actually try this in the 1” slide over flare I cast into the side of my forge.

Also, I do like your T Burner design, it definitely seems like a better, more versatile approach, but I was nervous about cutting down a mig tip and properly tapping the 1/8” hole in the T. Regardless, Im going to build a couple of heads per your specs (exactly, no mods ) and see if they work better for my application.

-

I started writing the following last night, it’s a little long, but wanted to record the results of the first test of my first burner build inside my forge. No need to read this all if you’re not interested, but definitely wanted to sincerely thank Frosty, Latticino, Mikey98118, Thomas Powers, and Irondragon Forge & Clay, for their comments/advice above as they have already saved me time and money on my future planned builds and final connections.

-

Wow! that was rad. Fired both the prefab burner and mine, in my frankenforge for the first time... wish I recorded it, I’ll record tomorrow after the refractory is completely cured. The best part is that y’all have already saved me $, but more importantly a whole lotta time. Results of forge test 1/burner test 2:

Both burners in my forge are really powerful, lots more than I expected, this is great, glad I didn’t hook this up to the paint can  

The burner to hose connection assembly I made is way over the top and kinda pointless, especially if you can’t see the pressure gauge. I’m still glad I built it though as it did allow me to determine which burner:

prefab #1 (P1), or 

the one I built, credit Ron Reil/Bordeaux mod (ZR2)

is more efficient. 

Results:

P1 @ 5 psi was inconsistent, chuffing @10  psi was better but still chuffing a little, @ 15 psi maintained consistent flow, good coverage, excellent vortex, but the nozzle got incredibly hot. @ 20 psi was too hot as this is also the final refractory cure and I didn’t want to burn it. Pro’s: The choke was helpful but extremely touchy.

ZR2 @ 5 psi maintained consistent flow good coverage, excellent vortex. @ 10 psi was perfect. @ 15 was too hot for the refractory. Pro’s: Nozzle stayed relatively cool, burner fit in 1.5” and 1.25” slide over flares, burner is more efficient.

Conclusions:

Regarding the propane connection:

There’s a photo of the complete assembly from intake to tank connection at the end of this, but it’s become clear that my hose connection assembly isn’t well suited for continuous, long term use. There are too many potential fail points and it’s cumbersome to take off the burner and the hose, which completely defeats the intent. I don’t plan on needing to know the difference between 5.5 psi and 6.25 psi, increments of 5 seems to be all I need and I feel like this could be done by listening, looking at the flame/forge, and using an adjustable regulator instead as others have advised above. That said, the hose connection assemblies will still be useful for future testing as noted above, and i’ll also use them (I built 2) to calibrate my future dual burners. 

Regarding the regulators:

Adjustable is definitely the way to go, so I’ll save one of the fixed regulators for future testing/calibration and use the other for my foundry. 

Regarding the burners themselves:

P1 burner is relatively useless, bummed I wasted my money. In addition to the results above (bottom line, my build, ZR2 is definitely more efficient), I left both burner bodies outside last night and P1 had way more rusting than ZR2 which makes me question the SS grade, or if it’s even SS at all. It will probably be relegated for use with the foundry only. 

ZR2 worked well for my application. Only one burner is needed as the forge chamber is relatively small at about 100 cu in.

Next phase:

I plan on testing again with the refractory completely cured tonight. 

I’ll also cut down a 9” nipple to 7” and test for better results and if it will work without a flare. 

I have one ZR2 intake built and a second partially built. I’ll finish the Bordeaux mod, adding the small set screws to the rim, on the partially built intake. 

I’ll also build Frosty’s T design and test as well. 

Based on initial testing, and the size of the chamber, I’m pretty sure I’ll only need one burner for this forge, so a dual/multiple burner design isn’t necessary at the moment. I’ll use the connection assembly I’ve already built until I receive the pieces for the better connection (adjustable regulator, better hose, shutoff cock).Even though I unnecessarily cast 3 ports into the forge, I’m still glad I did as they should prove useful for several reasons not worth getting into here. 

Down the road, I’m gonna build a larger forge for wider pieces. If I need a multiple burner design, the propane split should occur closer to the burners rather than at the propane tank/regulator. The concept I’m working on is heading in the right direction, but I plan on looking more into larger forge designs and Frosty and other’s connections before I go any further with this. 

 

 

[Zach Wolpa]

Frankenforge getting ready for  testing round 2.

[Mikey98118]

I think you have a lot of drive, imagination, and certainly good drawing skills. What you don't have is a clue why things work in a burner. You can build a good burner EXACTLY ACCORDING TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF SOMEONE WHO DOES, or you can "wing it" successfully if you understand the why of burner design your own good self; one or the over. There are no shortcuts!

Frosty has burner instructions, with drawing, on how to build his very hot burner. You even get to quiz the author.

Larry Zoeller Forge has instructions and photos on his website; buy the way, he sells stainless steel tapered nozzles for eleven bucks.

There is more than one kind of stainless steel tapered burner out there for sale. You should even be able to buy replacement nozzles for most burner sizes from Hybrid burners.com

The minimum Two things you need from a flame nozzle is that it be made of stainless steel, and that, whether it is a traditional taper design (like Larry Zoeller's) or one of the recent short tapers, or even one of my stepped style nozzle, it needs to be a slide-over style (Thank you Latticino); not be screwed on.

All I can say about your decision to add a stainless steel pipe unto the end of a minimally useful nozzle made from a pipe reducer is, "that was where you left the road completely."

[Frosty]

Tube length is measured from the "throat" as described in the "illustrated instructions" and does NOT include the intake structure or flare UNLESS you stick a silly too long one on. The easy way to put ratios into shop drawing terms is to make it a fraction. What's 7/8 of 8?  

That isn't Smart Alecedness, it's a shop guy's way of short cutting blue print calculations accurately. However if you're working to close tolerances you double check the numbers. However in this case same as figuring chain sprocket and pully ratios it's plenty accurate.

There's nothing wrong with liking to tinker and winkle things like this out but you're doing it the hard way. You're trying to put things together that don't go together or just plain don't apply. It's like trying to figure out how to build  VW dune buggy by mixing and matching a Nova and a Mustang. 

Why don't you start where Ron and I did by doing patent searches and tinkering with the linear burners running forges before the turn of the last century? Believe it or not it'd be easier. Ron's first basic burners were virtual copies of burners made right after mass produced iron plumbing became commonly available, 1880s?  Patents from 1890 were your basic screw together bell reducer on a piece of pipe with a small dia. fuel supply pipe and a jet hole. Heck the things were so common I've never found a patent for the linear burner, we got glimpses from the patent drawings for "Improved, Blacksmith or Farrier forge."

Earlier NA burners were mostly hand made from sheet with a trumpet flared intake and run on "Brown Gas" CO. It was old tech when Ben Franklin was messing with improving gas lights. Even then this type induction device wasn't really intended to be a burner, they were, as far as I know, developed to First, pump fresh air into mines and then pump water or draw vacuum. 

I stopped chasing the origins of the things years ago at around the early-mid first millennium BC.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Zach Wolpa]

Mikey98118 so, it’s hard to see in the photo, but there’s actually 3 SS pipes cast into the side of the forge, 1”, 1-1/4”, and 1-1/2”, from front to back.

the back two pipes are drilled and tapped with set screws. The reducer on the burner is at the end of the burner tube and goes to a 1” SS nipple (nozzle) which slips into either of the back two pipes. The reducer blocks back flow but doesn’t get hot at all, and the “cast in” pipe acts as the slide over flare. All in all it may be too much burner for this forge, and I may scale down and try a multiple mini NA burner design.

Frosty I’m really into NA burners, and like I said I’m building your T burner design (trying to stick to the specs) but noticed something in the illustrated pdf instructions that I think kinda threw me off and may need clarification. The directions call for a “1/8” mpt x 1/4” flare fitting” I went to two pluming supply stores and a couple of local hardware stores and could not find the right part so I stopped by a place called fittings inc. and after two wrong pieces, the guy finally found a 1/8” mpt x 1/4” mpt which I know isn’t right but I couldn’t even find one of these at the first 4 stores and it seemed close enough so I picked up two. Long story short, the mig tip is almost loose in a 1/8” mpt fitting, I suppose I could tap the hex where it gets tight and use a bunch of thread tape or locktite, but I don’t think that’s the intent. 

Here’s where it gets funny , I go back to the Home Depot for some other odds and ends, and I find a bag in the fittings rack that’s been sharpied over “flare” ??? It’s actually a 1/8” flare to 1/4” mpt fitting.

With this fitting, the mig tip doesn’t slip in, so it will need to be tapped like your instructions say. Also, it fits much more snug in the tapped T fitting than the standard 1/8” mpt. I think the 1/8” side needs to be flared?

So, here’s some photos, starting from the story above to progress on Frosty‘s T-burner, to the frankenforge in action. 

 

 

One more looking into the forge chamber:

[Frosty]

You've run into one of the problems of publishing plans on Iforge, you can't go back and edit them. I used to be able to buy 1/4" mpt x 1/8" flare at the plumbing supply HVAC service shop up the road from me but they don't stock them, fewer and fewer do anymore, I bought a bunch last time. 

Not being able to edit means you can't include the little tricks and details you didn't think of. MPT stands for Male Pipe Thread and pipe threads are tapered. If you tap too deeply the fitting won't seat tightly on the threads, you have to screw it in till it seats on the shoulder. Seating on the threads is a better alignment. 

The guys here have started using 1/4" flare couplers. and just thread the T to accept the thread pitch on one end of the coupler. I'd have to ask one of them what the threads are, I have a bunch of the old type so I don't know what they are off the top.

The jet screws into the fitting. I know folks drill the fitting out, slip the jet in and solder it but that eliminates the benefits of being able to change them. Other guys have cut the threads off and threaded the outside of the jet and re-tapped or used a fitting to accept it. 

My original intent was as simple as possible and functional. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Zach Wolpa]

Frosty, I’m sure you get bombarded with silly questions, so thanks so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge and answering mine  the build itself is actually a breeze, the floor flange really helps. It’s just finding that right piece, I’m gonna take the one I found in the mystery bag to the fitting store and see if they have em, otherwise I’ll just have to keep my eyes out for more mislabeled fittings. Looking for them online is even harder, and I don’t have a lot of confidence that even if I found it, I’d have the right piece. Call me old school, but I like to have these things in my hand before I buy them. I’m happy to draft up your instructions into a CAD drawing if you’d like, I’ll probably do this anyways for myself. I do have a couple more ?s Tho:

1) the 3/4 burners I built are actually too powerful, I haven’t tried the 3/4 T yet, but will do so once I finish tapping the fitting. Lots of dragons breath, mostly yellow but a little blue, even at like 3 psi. Forge chamber is likely too small. But I do like this forge for longer, narrow pieces. Thinking about scaling down to two 1/2” T or burners, do you think this is a mistake?

2) can’t find “redhat” Adjustable regulators anywhere, is there another brand/source you might recommend? Anything besides 0-30 psi I should look for?

thanks in advance!

cheers, 

zach

 

[Mikey98118]

On 3/23/2018 at 3:01 PM, Zach Wolpa said:

n the rim above the intake hole in the 1.5" bell to

If you change over from a drilled hole to a .023" MIG tip, then you need to change out the 1-1/2" x 3/4"  reducer fitting for a  larger 2" x 3/4" reducer. Otherwise, the increased ability to induce incoming air will be hampered by an undersized reducer.

[Frosty]

The problem isn't too powerful, it's a too high velocity. I accidentally discovered how to make them relatively low velocity in my greediness quest for max BTUs per second. The larger the jet the more fuel per second you can put in the forge at a lower psi. Tuning is  the issue. large jet more intake port and the farther from the burner throat.

The old commercial burner's jets were AT the choke plate as far back as possible but they have full length tapered tubes and smoothly curved intakes. The 1/2" linear burners were far more efficient than  the best home build I've seen.

Sure, a 1/2" T is an easy build, same ratios and a 0.023 mig tip jet. It's still a FAST flame though. I'd have more advice on the 1/2"ers but I haven't messed with one, other guys in the club swear by them though.

Frosty The Lucky.