Cutting car springs - do not when not clamped!

[Shalev Zohar]

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

then you don't know enough about them or the craft to be thinking about blades let alone swords.

you aren't the first teenager to want to jump into blacksmithing by making swords. We hear it all the time.

Why so hostile?

I don't have a space where I can both keep the tools and work, I spend hours moving them, modifying them, buying them, working in different locations and just wasting time because the tools are too slow/not made for the task. I've made multiple knives, some fully forged, all of them hardened, some axes, a hammer, a shield boss, an arrow head, and a bunch of other stuff. I've been forging from time to time for more than three years. I want to make a sword and I probably can (with the right tools).

[JHCC]

15 hours ago, Frosty said:

If you spend 90% of your time just messing with the tools then you don't know enough about them or the craft to be thinking about blades let alone swords.

Don't knock messing around with tools! For the hobbyist, that's half (or more) of the fun!

14 hours ago, Frosty said:

I don't get the, "and a Rapier nonetheless," thing. We don't really talk like that in America do we Steve?

I think Shalev Zohar meant "a rapier, no less", but I could be wrong.

[Smoggy]

4 hours ago, Shalev Zohar said:

Why so hostile?

Frosty isn't being hostile, he's offering sound advice based on past experience and the information you are supplying. It's all too often that bigginers come along and want to start forge work and begin with forging a sword when they have little or no understanding of equipment, techniques and materials. That is not the fault of the begginer, it's just that they have not yet learned enough to understand their own limitations. I'm retired, I've had several carreers including mechanical and civil engineering and given the machinery and materials I could likely build a petrol or diesel engine, I could certainly build a low pressure steam engine, but I would not attempt to make a sword. Yes there are some styles of knives I could forge a reasonable blade, but I'd not even consider a sword.

You've given the impression you are hard put for equipment and workspace. There are folks here that could take a walk out into the woods or fields in most places around the world and build a forge, find an anvil and hammer and go to forging given they could source a bit of scrap.

There is a chap currently, at least he was lately, wandering around European cities carrying forge, hammer and anvil on his back and forging on the streets of cities. Chinese smiths worked itinerantly for centuries travelling the countryside and setting up shop in the village to make or repair items and then move on to the next village. The minimum of equipment is not only all that is needed but also a preference if you are travelling or have no perminent set up. Plenty of people can only find time to forge in their backyard on the weekend after the working week is over, and during the week the wife and kids want that yard back for their use so it all gets packed away till next time. Yes, it's great to have a perminent set up with all the tools, but we can't all have that, so what if your anvil don't have a horn, nor does mine, it's not needed, your grinder is only 180w.....thats 180w more than my file!

What Frosty is advising is you learn more of the craft (all aspecs) before you dive headlong into serious bladesmithing. Sound advice for any novice, unless you can demonstrate that Frosty is wrong and I'm sure he would be delighted to be proven so if you could supply photo's of the work you have already completed so an reasonable assesment of your skill set can be assertained. You'll only get replies on these boards from folks that are genuinely interested in seeing you do well and progress, but to help you they may have to be a little blunt at times, no hostility is ever intended. In the meantime, keep perusing the threads, there's a wealth of informtion about things you'e never even thought about yet!

[ThomasPowers]

actually that file should have about 75 watts...depending on who is using it.

Do please remember that answers here are provided to the world and may exceed the question asked or go into details not needed. This is one reason you see stuff repeated time after time eg: we try to catch the new anvil owner *before* they grind the face off their anvil to make sharp edges that are a BAD thing anyway!

I would strongly suggest not working on a sword till you get a dedicated shop with *ROOM*!  Easy to catch/bump/drop a long work piece in a constricted space and the damage done may not jut be to the workpiece, or the shop---it can be *you* that gets the burn/cut/burn-cut. Also  tooling up will make making swords a lot faster and less frustrating.

I know Hrisoulas' books have discussions on swordmaking and I'm currently reading "The Sword and the Crucible" (metallurgy of European swords to the 16th century. I've already read "The Celtic Sword", "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England", and a bunch of other books on historical methods and materials. I've also spent a year working full time for a professional swordmaker.)

But yes you can make a forge with just a simple forge, anvil, and a number of files and MASSIVE amounts of time.  Don't forget the Harmonics of the blade and the role of Distal Taper.  (also in rapiers: give some thought to the ability to forge weld baskets up out of a number of rods.)

[Shalev Zohar]

3 hours ago, JHCC said:

Don't knock messing around with tools! For the hobbyist, that's half (or more) of the fun!

I think Shalev Zolhar meant "a rapier, no less", but I could be wrong.

For sure, and also I spent in total probably less than 400 bucks for three years of smithing, which is a great plus. But I want to try harder things which are beyond cheap tools and I have many other hobbies and forging just can't steal all my budget and time, so I'll be looking for other people's workshops instead of making my own.

You are correct, I'm no native talker by any standard and most of my English comes fron Youtube and forums, brace up for many other slips.

[Shalev Zohar]

10 hours ago, Smoggy said:

.

(I hope I'm quoting okay^)

 

I'm not here to fight either, but I can't have productive discussion when you presume I don't know anything about forging and get this "Don't feel lonely though, you aren't the first teenager to want to jump into blacksmithing by making swords. We hear it all the time" disregard. I get that you are probably approached everyday by people who didn't use a screwdriver their entire life and want to make a greatsword/katana from rebar they found in their backyard, but please be patient with me, I know what I'm doing (hopefully)

I know my limits, and I know the proccess of making a sword. My plan is simple and up to my limits- a short not-sure-you'll-agree-it's-a-Rapier-at-all-sword, wide and with only a true edge, which will be made with 60% stock removal. I've already drawn it and done most of the planning and dimentions (I actually came here to ask about upsetting for the sword because I want to get it to 7mm in the base instead of the 5 of the leaf spring but the width-thickness ratio is borderline too much for that not to just fold/ shroom).

I've made stuff before, I already talked about it so just have the images (I'm a very artistic person who shouldn't use fake fur). You can judge however you like based on that, the smaller knife was made from THAT spring...

×

 

I could use more practice before making a sword, and will probably get it before I get access to the tools. Engineering and blacksmithing have major differences, if you haven't ever laid a hammer on hot steel then a sword really is not gonna come easy, but not attempting isn't the way. The first year and a half of my forging was soft ugly props for costumes, I came here by doing things out of my skillset until I got the skillset. I made a xxxx "Katana" two years ago- soft crude fat construction steel atrocity with no real handle. Did it kill me? No. Go make a sword, mess it up, who cares. You'll live on, and then you'll make better swords.

 

My first forge was mud and bike pump, my current one is grill and vaccuum cleaner, but I need to quench the sword somehow when it's all hot, and generally have a forge that doesn't melt my steel in its whims (it ate an entire knife). And that grinder is better off in the trash, it's already almost done for (but xxxx, it did cost only 20$).

[Daswulf]

SZ, Please remember this Is a family forum and cursing is not needed or allowed. It can be tough not to for some of us but it's just good practice.

I will say your drawing skills are good and the handle layout on the first pictured is nice. forge and finish could use some honing. Can you forge a sword? I dont know. I personally wont tell you that you can't. With better forging skills, the finishing could be done with lower tech tools. If you are willing to put the work into it, you don't need all the fancy stuff. I have done a Lot of file work before.

If you are looking to upset steel there are threads on it if you don't have specific questions on it

[Shalev Zohar]

I've read the rules, didn't know what I used counts. Won't use it anymore although I am struggling.

Thanks, I'm coming from an artistic background and I've been drawing weapons long before I started making them.

I finish the blades on whetstone so it comes out in a weird messy pseudo mirror polish, I really don't have any other means, not even buffing compound. I'm not intending to use sandpaper, life's too short for that. It's also too short for filing an entire sword, sorry... But I'll find a solution.

About my ability to make a sword- don't tell frosty but I'm not sure either, yet I'm willing to try either way, I already created one faliure of a sword, nothing can stop me from creating two.

I have a very specific question- if the thickness is 5mm - what will be the maximum width of the bar that will still let me upset without just crumbling, also some other questions, no need to answer me here, I'll be posting the topic soon.

[Daswulf]

I have made some fancy fully polished sso's and kso's before. No worries. I still have intentions of eventually making a real sword someday. Have done a knife and started others after some years of forging experience. Upsetting depends on your ability. Practice! I have done a bit of upsetting material lately and actually like it. 5mm will take some skill to keep it straight and even. seems to me the larger the stock the easier to keep it even. 5mm by what? if its square or round it will be difficult. if it's rectangular, I'm not sure as I havn't tried much like that yet. All I can say it a few taps, straighten/flatten, few taps more repeat.  And keep it up to a good movable heat for the steel used.

[Shalev Zohar]

9 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I would strongly suggest not working on a sword till you get a dedicated shop with *ROOM*!  Easy to catch/bump/drop a long work piece in a constricted space and the damage done may not jut be to the workpiece, or the shop---it can be *you* that gets the burn/cut/burn-cut. Also  tooling up will make making swords a lot faster and less frustrating.

But yes you can make a forge with just a simple forge, anvil, and a number of files and MASSIVE amounts of time.  Don't forget the Harmonics of the blade and the role of Distal Taper.  (also in rapiers: give some thought to the ability to forge weld baskets up out of a number of rods.)

I have room, an electrician's workshop(grandpa), so I'm just lacking tools. I'm currently looking for blacksmiths who I can bribe to give me space in their workshop, but that I'll need just for the quench and grind, I can manage the rest in grandpa's garage.

I already got burned, cut, but still not burn-cut, intimidated, but hopeful.

I've deciced on the measurements for the distal tapor already, though it might be a tad front heavy, it'll be more cut oriented.

How can you quench with a simple forge? the thing is a meter long and needs to be entirely, uniformly above critical temperature. My simple forge annihilates one part of a knife while the opposite one remains cold.

I don't know enough about harmonics, I'll try learning of it and will do my best with the sword, mostly being hopeful, forge welding a complicated hilt is beyond me, even welding one probably is, I found a work-around which is within my skill set- just a dome (boss?) and a simpler rod arrange.

(the blade will be a little longer, this is the rough sketch and I didn't really notice the proportios were off.)

[Daswulf]

4 minutes ago, Shalev Zohar said:

but still not burn-cut

Those are not fun......

 

5 minutes ago, Shalev Zohar said:

How can you quench with a simple forge? the thing is a meter long and needs to be entirely, uniformly above critical temperature. My simple forge annihilates one part of a knife while the opposite one remains cold.

You need to move the sword back and fourth in the coals to get an even heat. it's just like fire management but metal management. You Do on the other hand need a container that you can quench the whole blade and then some way to temper it.

[Shalev Zohar]

4 minutes ago, Daswulf said:

I have made some fancy fully polished sso's and kso's before. No worries. I still have intentions of eventually making a real sword someday. Have done a knife and started others after some years of forging experience. Upsetting depends on your ability. Practice! I have done a bit of upsetting material lately and actually like it. 5mm will take some skill to keep it straight and even. seems to me the larger the stock the easier to keep it even. 5mm by what? if its square or round it will be difficult. if it's rectangular, I'm not sure as I havn't tried much like that yet. All I can say it a few taps, straighten/flatten, few taps more repeat.  And keep it up to a good movable heat for the steel used.

I've got no clue what sso's and kso's are...

I'll be using the leaf spring, will cut it into thinner square stock before forging, but I want to cut the least I can and upset the rest of the width because I need to icrease the thickness and length, the spring really is too short. So I'll try the maximum width that 5mm can bear, but I was aiming for around 4 centimeters of width to reduce to 3.

I'm notorious for forging metal while too cold, I can live with small parallel cracks in my thick knife but I won't be making that mistake with a sword, I will take your advice.

[JHCC]

3 minutes ago, Shalev Zohar said:

sso's and kso's

“Sword-Shaped Object” And “Knife-Shaped Object”.

[Shalev Zohar]

3 minutes ago, JHCC said:

“Sword-Shaped Object” And “Knife-Shaped Object”.

Ah, the classics.

[Daswulf]

No excuses not to try if you are determined. get your answers to any questions, But Please share your progress on this.

Funny enough, draw filing seems to go pretty quick when you are in the Zone. Good posture and position and go at it.

[JHCC]

Upsetting edgewise is tricky: your workpiece will want to mushroom on the edges and get longer, and it won’t get thicker unless it’s hot enough and the force of your hammer blows is penetrating all the way to the center. 

Were I in your situation, I’d do a test piece, perhaps one-and-a-half times your target width to start with and maybe 10cm long. Forge that edgewise to the target width and see what your final thickness and length are. Extrapolate from those results what the dimensions of your actual blank should be. 

[Shalev Zohar]

19 minutes ago, Daswulf said:

You need to move the sword back and fourth in the coals to get an even heat. it's just like fire management but metal management. You Do on the other hand need a container that you can quench the whole blade and then some way to temper it.

I can't believe I actually forgot. With my kind of forge it's just mechanicly inpossible, so I forgot it was a possibility, but I can build a forge that does the job in half a day. Still, now that I think of it won't it be better just going to my former art teacher and ask to use her kiln? I'm not sure of my abillity to get an even heat and keep a rapier straight.

[JHCC]

As you forge, if that edge mushrooming gets out of control, you will end up with cold shuts. For an example of how to avoid this, please watch this video from IFI member- basher.

 

[Daswulf]

I don't know enough about kilns to know.

[JHCC]

I think there are some threads in the Heat Treatment section of the forum about using kilns. I’m just guessing, here, but unless it’s suspended vertically or lying perfectly flat, there may be an increased risk of warping. Good temperature control, though. 

[genesaika]

I just what to say that for thousands of years beautiful swords we're made with whetstones, a lump of steel, and a small pile of coal. If you put forth the effort to learn how to manage heat and steel than you don't even need anything more. Infact larger forges are generally ill advised due to the huge fuel consumption.

If you want to use more modern techniques and tools, then feel free to. Don't, however, assume that you need those tools in order to work on anything.

[Daswulf]

Basher is British? I never knew. Haha. what a great video.

[JHCC]

10 minutes ago, Daswulf said:

Basher is British? I never knew. Haha. what a great video.

The “london uk” location in his profile settings didn’t give it away?

 

[Daswulf]

I don't spy on Everyone. No time. Usually on my phone that doesnt state location under the name.

[Frosty]

Shalev:  My comments about your command of English were uncalled for and I apologize. No excuses, my bad.

Commenting about young guys wanting to jump into the craft by making swords is based on reading your posts. You came here to ask a question and you've argues with every response that didn't meet YOUR expectations. Just like a kid. 

You're also making a LOT of beginner mistakes though the biggest is about your tools. Tools don't do ANYTHING, they're nothing but highly refined dirt. It's the human using them that does it all, ALL. There are blacksmiths who make an excellent living with no more than a sledge hammer head for an anvil a couple smooth faced hammers and maybe a chisel. They make the rest on the spot and villagers bring scrap and good eats to trade for tools. 

A horn on an anvil is completely unnecessary but you have to know how to blacksmith at a more advanced level than yours. 

First is an important rule of the craft. ANY unsupported steel WILL bend not forge.

A second rule that plays an important part in the craft and especially what I'm going to tell you about turning scrolls, rings, etc. is. Force ALWAYS takes the easiest path. This is a basic principle of physics and it's hard to get more basic than blacksmithing.

Turning a ring is bending. Doing it over a horn tends to cause a missed blow to pinch the stock between the hammer and horn. The pinch causes the stock to be forged instead of bent altering it's length, width, etc. a BAD thing. The two most common methods are over the edge or on the face. Over an edge is striking the stock on the unsupported end projected out from the edge. Again, a missed blow forges the stock but a little practice and it's pretty easy. First session easy.

My preferred method is on the face. I lift the stock so only the end is on the anvil's face, then strike the unsupported section a predetermined distance back from the edge. The angle or lift bridging the stock is another factor that determines the size and shape of the turn.

Once the turn is started, I usually change when it's about 90* though that depends. I lower the standing end and begin striking on the outside of the turned section. Here's where being able to judge where the shortest path the force will take comes in handy. The lowest energy and most direct paths are often the same or very close. If you picture this technique by picturing a letter J on the anvil. If I strike directly on top the J will close up but the straight section, the back, will bend more than the rest. However if you lay it on it's back on the anvil and work the end you can make it into a proper scroll.

I can turn many varieties of scroll on the face almost as fast as someone using a scrolling jig. Sometimes faster. 

I've owned my Soderfors for about 40 years and as I gained skill I used it's beautiful horn less and less. About all I use it for now is a drawing die, fuller. 

Frosty The Lucky.