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How to forge" Bend Flat Bar the Hard way using the Easy way.


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This video is on how to make a bend the hard way in flat stock..  As most know hard way bends in flat stock can be troublesome so 30 years ago I came up with this to remedy the problem.. It can be used for just about any bend angle and just about any sized flat bar.. It can also be used with sheet metal if not to wide and can be done cold..

 

The only draw back of this technique is it will leave the outside radius round with a slightly thinner edge..  This can be remedied by upsetting it first and leaving the upset offset or you end up with a fuller gullet..  The material on the inside radius does get thicker and with practice can be smoothed or left with a fuller gullet as there is plenty of material to create reinforcement..

 

 

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12 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

It's a huge advantage when you don't have someone saying "It won't work" or it can't be done..  Discoveries happen when least expected.. 

I was planning a gate with a lot of bends 'the hard way' and asked an old timer blacksmith I respect and he told me matter of fact those dog leg bend (some at 120 degree) can not be done but for cutting and forge welding it together again. 

I wasn't too convinced and went ahead anyway. The first bend was a bit of a disaster, but I soon took to heating up the area, sitting it flat on the open vice and hitting the inside edge to fold the flat bar out. a bit of pushing and pulling at I had it in position to flatten it. Your way to bend at 90 first makes it easier still. Good stuff :D

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Never would have thought of that technique myself. Thanks!

However (not diminishing anything), an option for a square outside corner would be nice too. I remember a video of making a square bend in a square bar (sorry, don't remember by whom). The idea was to first OVER bend the bar - to 180deg. Upset the metal from the thickened inside bend toward the outside bend. Then open the bend to 90deg (or whatever). Now you have extra metal on the exterior, that can be formed to a nice square corner.

I wonder if the same can be used with a flat.

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3 hours ago, lyuv said:

Never would have thought of that technique myself. Thanks!

However (not diminishing anything), an option for a square outside corner would be nice too. I remember a video of making a square bend in a square bar (sorry, don't remember by whom). The idea was to first OVER bend the bar - to 180deg. Upset the metal from the thickened inside bend toward the outside bend. Then open the bend to 90deg (or whatever). Now you have extra metal on the exterior, that can be formed to a nice square corner.

I wonder if the same can be used with a flat.


I like your enthusiasm with the suggestion but it really is a different beast with " Hard Way bends"   vs  equal cross section bends..   This technique will not work with same or = section bends....  it will only work with  wide with thin cross sections.. 

The technique for equal cross sections is different and maybe I'll post a video on it as well as some point..  with that said there are a lot of them out there.. 

sq bend in sq bar is easy as is round or = cross sections..    With or without a welded corner or upset material pushed into the corner..  Bending round or square because the cross section is the same even with an upset to add material to the corner the bar is not trying to twist away from it'self because of the strong vs weak side..   2" X 1/4" or in the example used in the video 2" X 3/16"

With any sharp bend there are always the same 3 problems,  cold shut, lack of material, and outside radius stretching..    On Sq, round bar or easy way bends the lack of material and outside radius stretching can be addressed with upsetting either before or after it is bent.. Easy peasy.. 

On hard way bends the outside radius is traveling what ever the distance the width of the bar is and there is a tangential equation for the exact distance it has to travel or elongate.. This is why the metal gets thinner..  and yes you can upset the bar and shift it to the off side.. but it is not what you would see when doing SQ, round or easy way bends.. :) 

you can still upset the bar and then use this technique but again it's designed  for a bar that is not even in cross section bent the hard way.. 

This technique can also be used at any distance from the end of the bar.. only requirement it the dog leg has to be held...   

One last thing,  The amount of material needed in a hardway bend can be substantial on the outside corner..   

This video shows no concern for this difference...  To get a sq outside corner with this technique it is possible but beyond a basic introductory as this video was designed for..  The hammer work becomes quite fancy.. (elaborate)... 

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I think your comment/need about holding the dog leg may be missed by some... thinking that the stubby hardy on your anvil might be there just left over from some other task. Good that you pointed it out again here on the thread. Some folks just watch videos and mute the sound.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good vid! Thanks. I've watched most of them and enjoy them all.

No critique, but I do mine a bit different, and to dimension. They end up with a sharp outside corner and a rounded inside corner. The thickness is constant across the diagional of the corner.

Add half the thickness of material to each side of the bend. Do as tight an edge bend as you can and keep all in plane. Finally, do an upset right angle bend as is shown in "the Blacksmiths Cookbook" by Francis Whitaker.

The one thing I did notice is that it seems you must really be careful or you will get a cold shut on the inside corner. 

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4 hours ago, anvil said:

Good vid! Thanks. I've watched most of them and enjoy them all.

No critique, but I do mine a bit different, and to dimension. They end up with a sharp outside corner and a rounded inside corner. The thickness is constant across the diagional of the corner.

Add half the thickness of material to each side of the bend. Do as tight an edge bend as you can and keep all in plane. Finally, do an upset right angle bend as is shown in "the Blacksmiths Cookbook" by Francis Whitaker.

The one thing I did notice is that it seems you must really be careful or you will get a cold shut on the inside corner. 

Thanks.. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply..    One of these day I have got to come see you work..  I'd love to play and talk about theory and get some old time schoolin.. You could beat me into shape right quickly I bet.. Get me to shed some of the bad habits I have gotten into.. :) 

Do you upset the bar first then shift it to one side?  Or do you draw it out from a larger section? 

I don't own the "Blacksmiths Cookbook".. LOL..I'll have to grab a copy..  I only own like 2 blacksmithing books I read and worked from as it was just good old smithing.. Practical blacksmithing, British Rural trades "blacksmithing".. I have a few others lIke the Alex Bealer book which is ok..  An the Weyger  series which are in the stash (not a fan).. ..  I own more metallugy books than blacksmithing or used to until I started lending them out and never got them back.. 

This video was done over the course of a few heats for the advantage of film and it being a teaching medium.. In reality and with practice it can nearly be completed in 1 heat..  The outside corner could also be made the same thickness with an sq outside corner but It takes some fancy hammering and would not have contributed much to the video other than more time in editing.. Ick.. 

The stock if clean with no rust pits and directions followed the cold shuts are easy to avoid as the material is set back into itself with no lapping..  try it and let me know.. Keeping the metal in a diminishing U is the key to success..  No V or W.. 

While in 2004 I was a pretty good forger, now It's more from memory with both a lack of muscle memory, dexterity and 14 years older set on top..  I would need to forge eveyday now to get good again.. Everyday for a 6 months and I'd have it going pretty good..   I was going over one of my old sketch books with forge times..  For a spring lock it took me 1hr 30minutes.. That same spring lock now would be 2hrs30min-3hrs.. 

Big fan of great quality vs speed now..  Though with practice the speed will increase on it's own.. 

Maybe, you could be talked into doing a video on your method???  :)      

 

Snapshot 6 (4-7-2011 8-17 AM).png

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Thanks for the kind words!  It would be great to spend some time with you in the forge! Who knows what the future may bring.

When I watch you forge,, your approach, hammer control, firmness of blow, you are just plane a joy to watch. Your experience shines. It defines "confidence" with respect to to our craft.

21 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Do you upset the bar first then shift it to one side?  Or do you draw it out from a larger section? 

The former. I upset, then move the mass from the bottom inside angle, on the diagional, to the outside corner with my cross peen.

I have two signed copies of "the cookbook". One to me and one to my wife who passed years ago. Mine is dogeared and well used, the other is for show. If I had a third, I'd send it to you. Weigers, Bealer, and the COSIRA books were my first as well. And about all that were available back in the day. My other "go to" is Plane and ornamental forging" by Swartzkopf(sp). This is the book Frank Turley uses as 5he basis of his class. I've found this on the net for free. For anything just above Intro level, the "Cookbook" is my go to. Francis was a master, and literally all his forgings were done ad you are doing here. Utter simple, simple tools, and efficiency to the max. As I said above, watching you work shows your mastery between hammer and anvil,,, having that, it's a short step to all the rest.

I'm working up to doing vids, but it's aways down the road. First comes my "dream shop", which is in progress. Pics of details is the best I can do at the moment.

Back to a right angle bend,,, the formula and technique works for any material. Here's a quick ;) rundown on technique. I first learned this with only hammer, anvil, and forge. Francis introduced me to using a ox/actl torch for a localized heat where needed to really speed the process. Without the torch, three heats or more is dogging the job with half Inch square.

Assume half " square.

1) lightly centerpunch the inside corners.

2) add half the thickness to each side of the bend and make a reference mark say 6-1/4" on each side of the inside center of the bend.

3) take a good yellow heat and make a tight right angle bend over the edge of the anvil.

4) with one leg down, nothing touching the edge of the anvil, upset with horizontal blows just below the radius. Count yer blows. Say 4. Then put the bottom of the outside leg on your anvil. Now 3 vertical blows on the top. (Other than to keep things straight, your piece stays in this perspective,,, outside leg pointing down and vertical and the top leg parallel and above the face of the anvil).  The purpose of this is to move equal amounts of material on each side of the angle. The horizontal blows are backed up by your hand, the vertical by the anvil. More material moved when backed up by the anvil. Thus fewer top blows.

5) continue this type of forging until you have a nice straight outside corner line,  and the top edges are flat(equal cross section and no bends).(confused yet?)

6) now you will have a nearly finished right angle with the inside angle way upset and the outside angle still drawn out. Now, lay both legs on your anvil face(Apex away,legs twards you) and use your cross peen to move the bottom upset to the drawn outside corner. 

If you have faithfully kept a check from your two reference marks to the inside angle, each leg should measure 6". You are done, and done to dimension.lol, with practice,,,more than 3 heats on a half square bar is costing you money. 3 or less is making it pay. 2 heats is not bad to shoot for.

The beauty of this is, assuming~3 minutes/ heat that with a welder of any sort, you cannot beat a good blacksmith for a finished right angle bend.  ;)

I sure wish I could do vids,,,

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Ok, you have convinced me to do a vid.  

Alas my shop is set up, but like teachers and doctors without walls I'm a blacksmith without walls.  ;) Dreamshop in progress.

Heat colors will be wrong, but hey, such is life.

Your vid technique is the best I've seen. I don't think I'll match this, it's a great act to shoot for.

Looking for a smartphone tripod as I type.

5hanks for the encouragement.

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anvil -  Excellent on the convincing.. :) yeah..  I'm totally into it..

I have a phone holder.. Pm me your address and I'll send it to you.. I have extra ones from things I've purchased and will never use them.. 

No big deal with matching 2X or 3X video cameras..  Yup. Ok on the colors..   I am thirsting for good content and it's hard to come by.. 

Yippie.. 

Sorry I didn't respond to you other reply..  Been so busy with horses.. 9 yesterday over a 100mile spread and then between winter and getting 50" of snow over the past few weeks, blah, blah, blah.. Oh, and then the new twisted handle video.. 

With an AO torch it really speeds things up..  I used to do a similar technique out on the road.. 

In the shop when I was full time I only used the forge..   I will post another video of another method I use which is done in the vise .. It's a little funky. You might like it.. 
 

I am really looking forwards to the video.. Will you do the bend in the examply you gave above?????? 

I did buy the book you mentioned.. I actually bought 2 by/for Francis W..  Should be here next week.. 

 

 

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I was sympathetic to your frozen water situation. It was common in my shop too. 

Thanks for the holder. I've got a Samsung note 4 if that matters.

I've been shy about doing vids because of my shop situation. It's going to be special,not big but "hand forged" . It probably won't be dried in til after next summer, or, hopefully sometime between next winter and spring.

But, hey, I've never been shy about much so no need to start now.

I'm sure you will like his books!

Yup my vid will be ad I described. I'm not sure how clear my write up was. Also, I wanted to make clear that I don't upset until I bend the bar. Then from transition back, each branch gets upset separately. One in the horizontal, the other vertically. I've tried doing the upset first where the right angle will be, but it's too clunkey and imprecise.

I built a great shoeing tool a number of years ago. It really works. Raise up and wave  your hands, shout firmly twice, and only twice,, "shew! shew!" And voi la, they are done and gone.  ;)

I'll make a comment on your basket with your post. I'm going to try attaching the handle like you showed. Never tried it that way.

Oops, this is the thread! Some times my computer illiteracy blows me away.

When I've done baskets with many pieces, and a void is in the center of the bundle, I've put a sacrificial piece in the middle. I knotch it nearly thru in a few places including  where both forge welds end. Then after welding it, break it out.

Also nice job on your finial. A tried and true technique for many things in my shop.,, Lol, I thought I was watching me!

 

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anvil - Holder went out today..  I learned a long time ago not to judge the person by their shop..   A skilled person can do a lot with little equipment and walls and such are just a convenience in the right place/location. :)  I like the Shooing tool..  

Let me know what you think after you try it.. The more feedback the better as it will give others a better idea vs just my input.. 

The notching and pulling the center bar out is another way,  but find for myself it's easier to just leave it out all together..  Sometimes if I am out of practice I just leave the extra rod in the middle..  This method was developed just for people who dont have the experience to pull off a lap weld..  Having everything held together really makes a difference.. 

Yes, I got the upset after the bend..   The fancy way of of doing this easy bend is worked in before flattened.. 

Thanks..  Be sure and post back to that other thread..  Thanks for the feedback.. 

Can't wait to see your video. :) 

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On 3/18/2018 at 4:55 PM, anvil said:

I've been shy about doing vids

 

17 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

not to judge the person by their shop..

Certainly glad to hear that! The culmination of moving my brother and my parents over the last two years has made my smithy more of a hoarder maze than an actual work space...... none of it MY stuff of course ("It Followed Me Home")! 

All Hijacking aside JLP, I finally got to watch (this) one of your videos all the way through - Mrs. Taylor and I were quite thrilled with it. Now to find the time to go back and carefully read this thread....... Jam packed with Brain Food!

Robert Taylor

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