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Ranchmanben

S7 hot fit tongs

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I was talking to a friend of mine this morning about selling some of my tools through his farrier supply store and he suggested that I make a few pairs of hot fits. Having never been a professional shoer and only cold shaped shoes, I’m not sure how hot these get. Is S7 over kill for these?  Will S7 as an impact steel be too brittle, once drawn out, to grip a shoe without breaking?

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S7 is overkill for sure. 1045 would be perfect.  They get hot, but not red hot. Even mild steel would be ok, but I've found tongs with a bit more carbon in them hold up a bit better. 

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I like and prefer the tong style. Point on 1 jaw to go in the nail hole and flat on the other jaw going against the inside rim of the shoe. I also like a ring on the end of the reins so I don't have to worry about the shoe falling out when I set it on the ground while making sole relief. And usually, from what I've used, they'll generally fit a 5/16" thick shoe in the jaws. Can make quick adjustments at the anvil without switching tongs. I'll take a picture of mine later today for ya. Hope all that helps ya out. 

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Thanks Horseshoein4 (Mark) That’s pretty dang close to what I’d like my final result to be. I’ve got a pair of Roy Bloom’s and a set of Jim Quick’s borrowed to use for scale. Who made those?

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Manben,

There is no such thing as perfect Tongs, every set is a compromise for another job/application. If you watch a Farrier Forging Competition, One set of Tongs handle all their motions.

Why do Farriers forge the extra bump into their reins, near the hinge. Visual beauty? It doesn't make the reins stronger, it creates a weak area next to the rivet. I can't see why so many people would play "Follow the Leader". Just askin', not wanting a fight.

Neil

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6 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

Why do Farriers forge the extra bump into their reins, near the hinge

I don't see how it creates a significant weak spot, the overall mass in that area is not significantly reduced.  While they might be a trifle weaker in ultimate gripping pressure, they are likely stronger in side bending due to the additional thickness from upsetting that fullered area.  It  also appears to give some additional support to the forces exerted on the offset section to put the reins in line with each other.  The inside curve also allows the reins to hang closer together when the tongs are racked.

I actually find it quite an attractive embellishment and will be attempting to add it to my future tong production.  Anyone have a good reference video for not just fullering that section correctly (which I've seen before), but also that subtle tong rein offset?

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Ranchmanben - I doubt the teeth are necessary, but I'm not sure. You'd have to test with and without. These are just about the same as Jim's tongs. They were made by Yukon Forge. Long time out of business unfortunately. 

They are absolutely not weaker. I feel they are stronger with the shoulder in the reins honestly. And yes, they look sweet. 

Latticino - here is a fantastic reference video for bolt tongs with the shoulder and offset. 

And here are flat jaw tongs 

 

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21 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

Why do Farriers forge the extra bump into their reins, near the hinge. Visual beauty? It doesn't make the reins stronger, it creates a weak area next to the rivet. 

Howdy Neil, I don’t think it makes the weaker at all. I’d  think that the curve, Fuller, behind the rivet would be stronger than the sharp inside corner found on most tongs. Inside corners are far more likely to crack. In addition to that, it does look nice. People like things that look nice. 

14 hours ago, Latticino said:

I actually find it quite an attractive embellishment and will be attempting to add it to my future tong production.  Anyone have a good reference video for not just fullering that section correctly (which I've seen before), but also that subtle tong rein offset?

It’s really not a complicated process but it does take quite a bit of practice to get right if you having got a striker. I finally built some dies for my guillotine tool to make it easier, faster and easily repeated. If you need any help, don’t hesitate to ask. 

13 hours ago, Hotshoein4 (Mark) said:

Ranchmanben - I doubt the teeth are necessary, but I'm not sure. You'd have to test with and without. These are just about the same as Jim's tongs. They were made by Yukon Forge. Long time out of business unfortunately. 

They are absolutely not weaker. I feel they are stronger with the shoulder in the reins honestly. And yes, they look sweet. 

Latticino - here is a fantastic reference video for bolt tongs with the shoulder and offset. 

 

On this particular style of tong, I can’t see why you’d need any extra grippiness. Since you’re just using the tips of the tongs and not really hammering or anything else. 

I’ve never seen Chris Madrid swing a hammer in person but I’ve hung out with Craig Trnka a couple time and that guy can stroke. He might swing a hammer with more precision than anyone I’ve ever seen. 

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Ranchmanben - Craig is an animal with a hammer in his hand. I've sgod horses with him one day and it was an amazing experience. Between the way he gets around horses and then pretty much eagle eyes a foot to cut the steel and make a shoe. 

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On 3/1/2018 at 1:59 AM, swedefiddle said:

 I can't see why so many people would play "Follow the Leader". Just askin', not wanting a fight.

Don't worry, I'll stir the pot for you.

You stumbled upon something about horseshoers. They're copycats. Biggest ones I know. The whole so called "Rugged Individualist" and " Independent" labels they wear with pride are a myth. Truth is most of them have never had an original idea in their lives and will copy one another right down to the style of business cards.

Go ahead guys, fire away:P

George

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Maybe so, I don't look at the trades as separate like a lot of people do. Not every Blacksmith shoes horses but every Horseshoer is a Blacksmith. Is a specialty within the trade.

Many innovative ideas and inventions we take for granted came from the brains of Blacksmiths over the centuries. In many cases they invented themselves out of work.

Horseshoers..... well, not quite so much. Why does everybody use side clips on front shoes? Why does everybody use Kerkhart shoes? The list goes on and on with the same answer. Cause it's what everybody else is doing. Even the word, The word "Farrier" didn't come into common American parlance before the 1970's Why do you guys all call yourselves that?

Come on guys, I know I'm poking a hornets nest. Who wants to play?:D

George

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George Geist - I’ve never been a “professional” farrier. I’ve shod horses for people who know that I’m a ranch/necessity shoer. When I did go to shoe a horse, largely for friends or fellas I day worked with, they’d question me about what brand of shoe I was nailing on instead of a kerkart or why I nailed my shoes with capewell instead of liberty. I told them I’m cheap so you’re getting what I nail on. Never had a complaint about my shoeing but I did have a couple of people buy the name brand shoes they preferred for me. I’ve never had a problem with a St. Croix shoe from the feed store. This all boils down to consumer desire. For the most part, I only shod working ranch horses, horse people want what they want. I’ve never seen a more picky crowd of people. So if you, as a farrier, don’t conform to what they expect, you’re out. 

These are largely observations and not from personal experience. 

On the tools side side of this discussion. Farriers want and need to look classy and professional when they show up to someone’s backyard to trim Fantasia, Midnight or whatever cheesy name these people come up with. Its hard to shake a first impression. If two guys show up, do the same job equally well for the same price it’s basically going to boil down presentation. 

Hope this makes sense, I’m tired. 

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Good Morning,

A Whine & Cheese Party. I like it!!

Popcorn goes with anything!! (Popcorn is kept just inside the door, of a Real Hardware Store, not a bigBox store) (LOL)

Neil

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On 3/1/2018 at 1:59 AM, swedefiddle said:

Why do Farriers forge the extra bump into their reins, near the hinge. Visual beauty? It doesn't make the reins stronger, it creates a weak area next to the rivet. I can't see why so many people would play "Follow the Leader". Just askin', not wanting a fight.

Neil

A well known farrier and tool maker starting doing that to give his tongs a unique and custom look.  His tongs didn't look like any other tongs and they looked cool,  instant market success.  Folks have been copying them since.

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3 hours ago, Gerald Boggs said:

A well known farrier and tool maker starting doing that to give his tongs a unique and custom look.  His tongs didn't look like any other tongs and they looked cool,  instant market success.  Folks have been copying them since.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that farrier was the renowned Jay Sharp. 

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On 3/18/2018 at 2:11 PM, Ranchmanben said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that farrier was the renowned Jay Sharp

Nope, that style was started by GE tool company back at least before the early '70's. Then a man named Dale Sprout quit GE and started making  nippers and other tools of the trade. He used the same style. 

Jay Sharp came ionto my radar some 10 years later. He was one of the first farriers to become a custom backyard tool maker for our tools. 

Dale Sprout is making tools to the day, but he works under Thor at the great forge just beyond,, ;)

GS is still in business.

Jay Sharp still makes tools to the best I know. 

All three make danged fine tools.

I have no clue of makers beyond Jay, other than an occasional pic/story here and there.

 

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