Insulating Fire Brick Health/Safety

[ede]

I understand many people use firebrick for doors of their forge.  What makes it more safe than rigidized ceramic fiber blanket though?   I ask this because I see the warning for rigidized ceramic fiber blanket regularly but haven't seen much warning for the firebrick.  Firebrick abrades when it is moved, becomes suspended in the air, and is made at least in part of Crystalline Silica.  

[Frosty]

Fire brick is MUCH less friable than ceramic blanket so puts almost no dust in the air. Wear a mask if you take a: saw, drill or sander to it of course but in use in a forge it's darned safe. I bet the dust you kick up off the floor is a greater breathing hazard. Seriously, you'd have to try to get breathable dust off fire brick.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty pinned it dead center; you are not going to find much dust that isn't bad for your health; it's only a question of how toxic and how much.

[Mikey98118]

Insulating firebrick can have lots of problems, but not the unhealthy variety. Old-style foamed-clay based insulating firebrick are basically clay and air, until they become mostly rubble and get replaced with something else. But the rubble contains very little dust.

K26 insulating firebrick are made of castable refractory and air voids (generated by steam); they do need to have their hot-face sides sealed, but they don't break down into rubble or dust

[ede]

Is firebrick that much less friable?  I'd be interested to see studies on this.

Yes, I always wear a mask when cutting or machining it. 

I have pieces of 2600 degree rated firebrick that have broken apart quite easily and have abraded on the steel angle iron entrance of my forge.   I was informed by a friend last night that he saw dust emanating from outside my forge.  It was a certain light condition where the outdoor shop was mostly dark, but the single light was partly silhouetted by a large black object (his coal forge chimney) where we were able to see particles in the air. 

[Mikey98118]

I think there is a mistaken impression. I recommend hard firebrick as temporary baffle walls in front o new gorges; not in doors;. Doors take work and therefore deserve careful choices.

[Ginger nation]

I had to remove a bunch of insulating bricks from an electric forge that my boss said was setting off a radiation measuring device is that normal or how dangerous is that.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

Where do you work Fukushima Daiichi? If in the United States, I would be contacting OSHA. What type of PPE are you offered?

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Ginger, glad to have you. It's not normal in the USA. Without knowing where you are your question is impossible to answer. If you'll put your general location in the header we can be more help. 

Other issues besides where the fire brick was made would be what is being forged and what and how clean the fuel is. 

Just because a radiation detector is showing radiation doesn't mean much unless it's at dangerous levels bearing in mind radium dial wrist watches are dangerous if worn for prolonged periods. Virtually everything is radioactive but not dangerously so. Take a Geiger counter to concrete blocks some time, most gravel os measurably radioactive. It's just not dangerously so.

So, what we need to know to have a chance of making useful suggestions are. Where you and this forge are located and how radioactive, what's the Geiger counter read?

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

As others have said what is setting off the radiation detector (and how low is it set?) could be any number of things.  The bricks could have been made from clay with a higher than average natural radioactivity (although U does not commonly bind to clay particles but it can happen).  I have even seen natural gas which has measurable radiation. (sidenote:  That was the problem with the experiments in the '70s using nuclear explosions to fracture tight natural gas reservoir rocks, it was great at fracturing the rock and mobilizing the gas but it made the gas radioactive.)  Also, are you and your boss sure that it is the firebricks causing the elevated radiation?  The first thing I would do is check the alarm to make sure it wasn't regestering a false reading.

Also, where are you, generally, located.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[ThomasPowers]

Note that fly ash from coal power plants used to be used in "cinder blocks" and is radioactive.  (Coal fired electrical plants tend to produce more radiation into the environment than Nuclear plants do!)

[Frosty]

Cinder blocks? It was used to make Portland cement. Yeah, the radiation release down wind from virtually any coal fired power plant is greater per hour than the total release from the 3 Mile Island reactor accident. Chernobyl MIGHT have them beat but I'll bet 2 coal fired power plants have hotter fall out.

Every darned thing is radioactive, we live in a sea of radiation, always have, always will. It's the amount that matters, quantity over quality is the name of the game. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Frosty, you remember I used to work with Europeans who were radiation adverse and used to express dismay that I would visit the Trinity Site; it was fun to point out that their plane ride to America exposed them to more radiation than the Trinity visit---and they still had the return flight to go!

My risk calibrator is: "is it more dangerous than driving to work?"  If it is, try to mitigate. If it's not, don't worry about it.

[Frosty]

Do you know what the half life reduction in radiation at the Trinity Site is? 

Depends on the quality of drivers and weather I suppose. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I'm sure it was carefully measured and plotted over time; I don't know if they were released though...I expect it would be a lot like the two sites in Japan though...

[Frosty]

Hmmm, isn't the Trinity Site a federal park, preserve, historic site or something? That sort of data isn't secret anymore, I might have to see what I can find out.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Nope the Trinity site is on the White Sands Missile Range; still an active range; I have a friend who's a security person that gets to keep people away from places they are testing "conventual"  weapons there.  2 Saturdays a year they allow American Citizens to visit, 1st Saturday in April and 1st Saturday in October.

Nice sized range, over 100 *miles* long IIRC. (Our V2 experiments were done there on the southern end.)

[Frosty]

I thought you might know, <sigh> I guess I'll see what the internet has to say my own self then. 

I didn't look t all the hits for "radiation levels at The Trinity Site" This was the first one. https://atomicarchive.com/history/trinity/radiation.html 

I might look at some of the others tomorrow. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Ironflower]

I have an NC Whisper Forge with a white, friable material lining the door and inside walls. I was told I should apply something to it to encase and reduce the material coming off when scraped placing metal in and out. Any suggestions of what product I should use?

Thanks for any advice. 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Ironflower, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with members living within visiting distance. 

Hmmmm, I was sure there were a lot more conversations about relining NC Whisper forges but this was the only one that came up and I don't want to sort through a couple few thousand posts in the "gas forge" section of Iforge.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/48040-gas-forge-relining/

There is some good detailed information about relining a Whisper and my favorite is by the fellow in the UK who buys refractory fiberboard and cuts the pieces and drops them in place. I haven't seen him post recently but a PM might get a reply.

The warning about wearing PPE when cutting, drilling, etc. fiberboard or ceramic wool blanket is important. The dust can cause a condition similar to silicosis and lead to mesothelioma. Wear a good dust respirator, sweep vacuum the work space. 

Frosty The Lucky.