ausfire Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 At the risk of annoying the curmudgeons (I have read a lot about heat treatment, tempering etc. but there are lot of conflicting opinions), I just need to know if I'm on the right track to making the hammer punch I made serviceable. Most things I make don't require heat treatment, so I have little experience in this. In short - cherry red, water quench about 50mm up from the tip, shine, watch colours run, stop at ? I quenched it at a straw colour, as it looked like blue wasn't going to happen. A couple of questions if I may: Did I quench it too deeply from red? How far from the tip would be right? Is straw a bit too hard (brittle?) and should I reheat and start again aiming for blue? Here's a pic of the colours after final quench: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hi Aus, If you want to use it for hot punching you don't need very exact tempering - the first dip in the orange hot stock is ruining all heat treating at the business end. If I were you and if it is a hot use tool, I'd just put its business end tip back in the fire for a short time (~10 sec in a normal coal fire). It gives some ease for the steel, and then the first punching job will do the rest. Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Thanks Gergely. It will be used for hot punching - mainly screw holes in wall hooks etc. I haven't tried it yet, as I was nervous about the tip being too brittle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I'd personally be a bit more worried about the hammer face being too hard and chipping, but I suspect that heat-treating the punch end would probably take care of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Here's my take. You may already be doing some of what I recommend. Heat treat with constant light, not outside When hardening and using the reserve (differential) method, quench shortly after it loses it's magnetism. Sorta like a cooks punch if salt. Experience will be your teacher. Only harden an inch or two, not most of the punch. You can add heat in a few ways if the colors quit running. A ox/ac torch, a hot bar placed in the eye(have a few ready), special tongs with a heavy mass on the ends to place near where you need it. Quench or harden only a little, not a lot. Depending on the tool, anywhere from a quarter inch for a small cold chisel to a half inch on your tool. As to proper color, the best I can suggest is find on line for free old smithing books like "plane and ornamental forging" by Schwarzkopf, or googerty to name just two they all have a myriad of proper temper colors depending on use For what it's worth, I always heat treat my hot work tools. Two reasons,,, Practice. The residual hardness(springiness) behind the hardened and tempered tip adds life and longer times between retempering. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I gotta say- that's a nice run of colors you have there! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 22 hours ago, anvil said: Quench or harden only a little, not a lot. Depending on the tool, anywhere from a quarter inch for a small cold chisel to a half inch on your tool. Sorry, I did this too quick. That should read temper, not quench. And only harden, depending on the tool and use, 1-1/2" to 2 ". Experience will be your best teacher, but this should get you there. This works for many steels and is worth a try on any mystery steel. I ht coil spring, leaf spring, w-1,10__ series, and with a slight modification, 0-1. Quench medium varies with steel. For O-1, I run the light straw to about an eighth inch or so from the end for small woodworking tools and leave that last eighth hard. Works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 Thank you for the help. JHCC: I didn't think the hammer face would be too hard because I assumed it would have softened during the forging process at orange heat. When I heated the punch end to cherry red, the heat didn't extend to the hammer end. I should test it with a file and see if it's soft. Stash: Yes, pretty colours but did they run far enough?? Anvil: Thanks for the guidelines - much needed info there. I did the treatment in quite dark conditions - just the photo in sunlight. You say just 1/2 inch quench - that may well be where I went wrong. I quenched about 2 inches. I do have a chart of colours - blue is recommended for punches. I think I may have to reheat and try again. Thank you again for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 They ran plenty for what it is. Claw hammers are usually tough, because you are driving nails but to be safe you can temper the face to a dark straw/purple stage. When it starts to mushroom just forge back round. OR only use a soft hammer for hammering on top tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 OK, thanks. I'll use it and see how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 2:27 AM, ausfire said: You say just 1/2 inch quench - The reason for this is that a long temper might make it too brittle for up high in the temper. Thus increasing the chances of breaking. A short temper backed by a softer one creats a "shock absorbing" backup that takes up the shock and protects the working edge. Lol, it's far easier to reheat treat, than reforged a broken tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 what are you talking about long temper too brittle? a temper softens, in fact I have never heard of the term long or short temper except for talking about time durations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Look at the pic of his tempered piece. Notice how long the straw temper is? I'd call that far too long of a temper for anything. And, yes, a straw temper that long is prone to breaking, chipping, etc especially with W-1 or 1080-1095. Isn't that one of the reasons a differential temper is used? To maximize the hardness of the cutting edge and backing it up with a spring temper backed by an even softer spine to prevent chipping etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Long and short tempering have to do with time being tempered, not location, making up terms is confusing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Actually, not if you look at the pictures first,, and read the posts. If you had, you couldn't possibly have made the post you did. That's a great way to prevent cherry picking and stops many "discussions" from digressing into wasted bandwidth. So, 'fess up,,,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I have read it, you are just being difficult. First talking nonsense about tempering too long making things brittle and now this Do you really want to keep it up ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 15 hours ago, anvil said: Notice how long the straw temper is? I'd call that far too long of a temper for anything. Could this be reworded to say the straw tempered section has more length than you would prefer? Long tempering to me is a time element, and the same words could have other meanings,, as you suggested. There needs to be a better description to better fit the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 For what it's worth, I have used it a couple of times for the initial punching of a bottle opener hole. It's held up OK so far, but I have been a bit easier on it than usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 On 2/27/2018 at 3:34 AM, Glenn said: Long tempering to me is a time element, and the same words could have other meanings,, as you suggested. There needs to be a better description to better fit the subject. No problem, I'm certainly not a word smith. Thanks for the suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 "Differential tempering" where the entire object is not tempered to the same temp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 Yes, that's it. Also called tempering by the reserve heat method. Say you make a wood chisel. After hardening, and you still have heat above where you hardened, quickly polish the end and let the colors run. You get a nice straw working edge backed by a spring temper backed by a tough to soft back to absorbe the shock. I do this with most all my heat treat. Knives can be fun. If you use a bit of water to slow the color run where needed and a auxiliary heat source to speed up the run, you can get say a nice straw cutting edge backed by a spring tempered region that runs past the transition from blade to tang, and a softer area twards the spine. It takes a bit of practice, but I feel, makes a better all around tool. At the very least I get a strong feeling of accomplishment when I'm done and feel I've developed many of the characteristics of the steel. Fwiw, the above is for the 10_ _ and W- series steels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 Do you have a set of tempering tongs? I was flabbergasted to find a set for sale at a local fleamarket cheap one time---they didn't know what they were! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 I made a set with the jaws extra heavy, extra long and triangular shaped. I made these for long forgings like knives. However I make few knives so they are rarely used. I prefer just heating up two or three "long enough" bars In my forge and holding them against or near the spine( as needed) with proper tongs. I also use a wet cotton swab to apply cooling at specific points to slow the colors. Until you get the hang of it it is a juggling act under pressure, but everything falls into place pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Last week, I had a welding project that didn't work out, and it left me with a 9" long bundle of 1/2" rods welded at the end of a longer rod. It turned out to be quite useful as a heated block for tempering my last knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 Just BTW, I have punched quite a few holes with the hammer punch as it was in the original photo. It's holding up very well. If I make another one I will ensure that the punch end is forged more in line with the hammer face. Only a slight offset but it is noticeable when struck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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