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Nydhog

Tang issues

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So when I am putting the tang onto a billet I am running into the issue of a dip on both sides the knife where the tang starts.  Almost like it is buckling inward.  Not sure what is causing it.  You can see it somewhat in the attached photo.  I used an old beat up billet to practice some stuff on.  Could it be I am not drawing the metal out enough before starting the tang?

27718077_10156083886436873_697880975_n.jpg

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If you are not trying to make a blade with a centered tang, then you need to learn a bit about using half faced blows, butchers or fullers to isolate the mass being used for the tang from that of the blade.  Personally I would not use a butcher with a very sharp edge, as that might lead to a cold shunt or sharp corner that will potentially cause a crack later, but one with a 3/16 to 1/4" diameter edge should be fine.  This is one of the reasons that it is a good idea to learn some basic blacksmith skills before jumping into blades, but you can certainly learn on the fly as well.

Please note that many smiths do offset the tang a bit from both sides as that allows the hidden tang to be fully encased in the handle without the handle rising above the blade, which many find unaesthetic.  You may be thinking of the ricasso.  See below:

hidden-tang-knife.gif

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I teach my students to use a swing arm fuller to start the transition to make it balanced and not a stress concentrator.  Once the that is done they hammer on the tang up to the dip and soon can place the  tang on the anvil face with the dip hitting the edge and allowing them to work the sides evenly or unevenly as they choose.

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Thanks guys!  The only tools I really have access to at the moment are anvil, coal forge, and a hammer lol.

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If you can't forge a spring fuller you sure can't make a knife blade and had better give up!

A swing arm fuller doesn't even take a forge though access to a drill would speed things up a lot.

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Lol you sure are a master curmudgeon, ain't ya ;-).  I have made other tools.  I make what I need no problem.  I haven't had a need for a spring fuller as of yet.  Now I need one so now I'll make one.  I just recently got into knives and am only honestly messing around with them using scrap.

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The swelling at the edges is also quite typical of what happens when you hammer on the edges of a bar: the material has to go somewhere, so it goes sideways. The force of the blow doesn't penetrate to the center of the stock, so that remains the original thickness. If you're going to hammer in the edges, you need to occasionally turn the piece 90 degrees and hammer on the flat to keep it even. @basher talks about this in one of his videos, noting that it's very much a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of thing.

Also, Welcome to IFI! Please READ THIS FIRST!

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1 hour ago, JHCC said:

The swelling at the edges is also quite typical of what happens when you hammer on the edges of a bar: the material has to go somewhere, so it goes sideways. The force of the blow doesn't penetrate to the center of the stock, so that remains the original thickness. If you're going to hammer in the edges, you need to occasionally turn the piece 90 degrees and hammer on the flat to keep it even. @basher talks about this in one of his videos, noting that it's very much a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of thing.

Also, Welcome to IFI! Please READ THIS FIRST!

I hope you didn't take me as being disrespectful towards Thomas!  I meant no disrespect at all!  I very much appreciate his, and everyone else who spoke up, advice.  All I was stating was at the moment the only tools I currently have.  I plan on making a spring fuller this weekend.

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Takes more than that to upset me; I found it indicative that you were willing to profit from my surliness!  (I am an insulin dependent diabetic and have blood sugar issues at times; however what did you expect when you imply that you can't make a simple tool but want to do a complex project like a knife?) 

My swing arm fuller is one of my most used tools. I've replaced the pivot bolt a half dozen times, (students!), and the top swinging arm 3 times so far---it's made from normalized auto coil spring and so takes a lot of abuse before needing replacement.  I made it using only an angle grinder and a 3/8" VSR drill---but that included finding the perfect piece that had a rounded top section welded to a vertical 1" sq piece---I almost threw it in the scrap bucket; then suddenly saw how to change it into the tool.   Now I wish I had a dozen of them!  My mod to a standard design is that the pivot bolt has a die spring trapped between the end and the upright letting me preset it with the arm up making it faster to insert and position the workpiece while not taking much power from the strike.

And when I teach I use the term "two steps forward, one step back" to describe that method of working too!

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too bad there are not any online classes posted somewhere than explains all this stuff :blink:

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Steve; if there is anything these forums have taught me it's that "You can lead a horse to water; but you can't make it conjugate irregular verbs in Ancient Greek".

The stickies you have labored over in the knifemaking sections are a massive resource for people starting out; but lack of "reading the faq" dates back to the old ascii net news days...I was hoping the connected generation would learn from our mistakes. ISTR an Arthur C Clarke story I read in the 1960's where it mentions that if you can't find data you have stored then it essentially doesn't exist for you...How much more so for data other people have stored for you?

 

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3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

"You can lead a horse to water; but you can't make it conjugate irregular verbs in Ancient Greek".

 

This may be the best thing I have ever read online lol.

 

4 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

however what did you expect when you imply that you can't make a simple tool but want to do a complex project like a knife?

 

That's not how I had intended it. I more meant it as "All I have at the moment is this".  I kind of suck at communication lol.   I appreciate you posting your take on the spring fuller by the way and am going to play around with that this weekend hopefully.

 

3 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

too bad there are not any online classes posted somewhere than explains all this stuff :blink:

 

3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

The stickies you have labored over in the knifemaking sections are a massive resource for people starting out; but lack of "reading the faq" dates back to the old ascii net news days...

 

Noted!  I will in the future scour the FAQ section before requesting help.  I appreciate the help that has been posted, however :-).

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What you may not be aware of is that we have a participant here who can handle the ancient Greek...and I'm expecting a nice hemlock smoothie from him after he reads that...

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είσαι σίγουρος γι 'αυτό;

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5 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Takes more than that to upset me

The best way to upset ThomasPowers is to heat one part of him and then hammer him lengthwise.

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

I'm expecting a nice hemlock smoothie from him after he reads that...

If a Classicist offers you a hemlock smoothie, decline.

 

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Aristophanes jokes until we croak....

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Well if you prefer elegiacs, we could discuss all the crimes of Heliogabulus; I would prefer not to get into peculiarities parabolous!

 

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On 2/7/2018 at 7:21 AM, Nydhog said:

I hope you didn't take me as being disrespectful towards Thomas!  I meant no disrespect at all!  I very much appreciate his, and everyone else who spoke up, advice.  All I was stating was at the moment the only tools I currently have.  I plan on making a spring fuller this weekend.

Welcome aboard Nydog, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance.

You are going to fit right in here but you're going to have to try harder to get a full curmudgeonly response out of Thomas, he's been dissed by more eloquently unrepentant.  

Frosty The Lucky.

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