How Much Per Hour!! (What is you shop rate)..

[jlpservicesinc]

@jeremy k

 

 

 

[rockstar.esq]

I remember seeing an animated documentary program in my youth where there was a coyote who would do complex calculations involving laws of science in his pursuit of a roadrunner.  

Sometimes the coyote would be running so hard that he'd go off a cliff and keep going until he looked down whereupon gravity (a law of science) would suddenly apply. He always got banged up really badly.  Sometimes he'd see his demise coming and would hold up a little sign with "Help!" written on it.  

He never caught the roadrunner no matter how hard he tried.  

I figured it applies here because anvils often played a vital role.  No matter how convoluted the coyote's reasoning, the laws of science brought about his demise.

Today's kids probably don't get a chance to see it because it portrays suicidal patterns of behavior.  

[jlpservicesinc]

@rockstar.esq Tnats cute..  I know those critters.. I was like.. I want one of those anvils.. 

Best to you with a hug included.. Unless you are not a hugger, than a hand shake..  

[rockstar.esq]

JLP,

Thank you, I genuinely wish you well.

[MC Hammer]

Interesting thread for sure.  Having run my own flintknapping business on the side for 11 years, I can tell you that having base rates are good but you have to be willing to float that rate both ways.  This applies more to pricing products for sale, but I do a fair amount of special orders that I set base rates for.  I know product A takes me about X amount of time to do and I always have Y amount in materials so I know I always clear a profit of a certain amount.  Where the trouble lies is with purchasing tools.  You have to watch it or it's just money in and right back out.  I also pay all my taxes including sales tax.  For many years I didn't charge sales tax and just paid what was owed because my customers always seemed to be annoyed with paying tax at a show.  Like others, I work a day job and have the business on the side.  

I have to agree with others who've said it's hard to set a shop rate when what we do is more art than industry today.  If my shop hourly rate is $60 and it takes me an hour to make a fork and spoon, I can't charge $60 plus materials.  That just seems high to the average Joe.  The shop rate also breaks down on something like hooks.  Say you can make 10 S hooks start to rust proof finish in an hour.  Would you charge $6 a piece for them?  Perhaps a shop rate works better with custom railings and fancy chandelier work, but common things it just starts getting squirrely IMHO.

As an artist, I know I'll never get my time out of a piece so I set my prices to make a profit and leave it at that.  If it were paying my bills, I might feel differently. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I have a sign in the shop...

Shop rate $25 an hour

 If you watch $40 an hour

If you help  $75 an hour

 

[Daswulf]

No one pays attention to it tho. But it rings true. Oh so true.  

[Rhyfelwr]

I  came late to this discussion..

I don't do hourly, sometimes I think back over what I've made and figure it by the hour but I do not price jobs hourly. My full time job is as a Carpenter, I build houses and decks and work for myself. I try to never make less than $200-250 a day. And unless there is some deadline I don't work more than 8 hours a day 5 days a week. When I bid a job the client is required to pay for materials and I receive pay either on draws, or when the job is done depending on the size of the job.  And the same goes for my blacksmithing business. No less than $200 a day, not counting materials, sometimes it will be many times $200 in a day.  Also if there are any tools needed that will be semi expendable I just price them into the quote.  So in summary:

Shop rate: >$200/day + Materials.   Semi-Pro.. (not quite a hobby, not quite my living)

No overhead, except a little electricity. Maybe a few belts and wheels.. But hey, add them onto a job! My shop is next to my house.

I've also learned not to be scared of pricing to high, I noticed people like to pay more for less. I think its because they wonder whats wrong with it if you are cheap.

 

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The highest rate on my shop sign was if they had worked on it themselves then brought it to me

Rhyfelwr - agreed , many acquaint cost with value. A stockmaker I know sent a high end customer of his to the gunsmith I worked for to have a screw replaced in a mid seven figure shotgun. Eldon did it and charged $20. The customer was on the phone calling Eddie and asking "was this guy any good!?". Eddie called Eldon and got on him for not charging more like $120 because that is what these guys are used to paying.

 

[Daswulf]

12 minutes ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

The highest rate on my shop sign was if they had worked on it themselves then brought it to me

Good call. 

[TheWoodlandForge]

Hello, Woodland here.

1. My shop rate is $10 per hour in upstate S.C.

2. At this time I feel that my rate is definitely worth it for the customer but not so for me. 

3. Compared to others around me I am in the lower range, I have met some glassmakers that are under $5 per hour.

4. At this point in time I am at the upper hobby tier approaching part time smith.

I've been at this since 2017-2018 but I didn't start selling my wares until late 2018 to early 2019. I am definitely more customer oriented than I probably should be in the fact that I want to keep my prices very low. I do a lot of small items such as hooks, Keychain ornament, jewelry, and bottle openers. I also do a few more complex things such as customer forged knives, hatchet, and tool/item restorations. My main place I sell at are craft fairs but I have been told that easy is a great place to sell. One of my main concerns is that of lost/stolen items on during shipping, which is why I preferred to keep it local. My suggestion would be to start your prices at about $10 per hour once you are good enough to sell and move on from there. With my skillset I could probably get closer to $15 per hour but like I mentioned earlier I preferr to really stay near rock bottom to benefit the customer more than myself. Hope this helps someone out there, God bless.

Edited January 3, 2023 by TheWoodlandForge
Didn't know how this thing works

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Woodland Forge, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of hooking up with members living within visiting distance.

How many hours a month do you have to work to cover shop overhead? $10/hr wouldn't hire a teenager to cut the lawn here let alone a skilled craftsman, not to mention keep the shop doors open.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains Woodland, we won't remember your location once leaving this post, hence the suggestion like Frosty said to add it in your profile.

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming. Glad to have you.

I have always been an advocate of using time as the basis of pricing your work.  Time is the only thing we have a finite amount of in this life. Ten minutes or ten hours spent doing anything is gone forever and we will not get it back.  So, pricing by the hour puts a price on a small slice of your life.  How much that may be is up to you but, remember, you are putting a value on an increment of your life.

Another factor is how skilled and efficient you are and how fast you can work.  Someone with experience and skill may be able to knock out an S hook in a few minutes while a beginner may take an hour.  Skill and experience are worth something.  For the last 25 years I have used $60/hour as a bench mark.  I can probably turn out 3-4 brooches per hour.  So, I price them at $15-20 each.  

However, there are times and projects that do not lend themselves to strict hourly pricing.  I may enjoy working on a particular piece for hours because I get dreative enjoyment out of it but if I put an hourly price on it no one could afford it.  So, if I sell it I have to accept a lower hourly price but I have gotten  a reward of satisfaction and dreativity out of it which is not reflected in any price.

It is also dependent on what you want or need out of the craft.  If you are trying to support yourself and family with your craft you have to be very rigorous and analytical about your time and pricing.  If it is a hobby that you want to pay for it self and give you a little walking around money you can be looser in how you price things.  If you are a pure hobbiest in it only for the enjoyment and the cost of fuel and materials is just the cost of your enjoyment you can give everything away and still not be behind.  Everyone will have different needs and come up with how to meet them.

I probably fall into the 2d catagory.  I don't want to lose money but I don't need the income to pay the mortgage and keep food on the table.

I have primarily sold at craft fairs and other various events such as Celtic Festivals, gun shows, historical reenactments, etc..  I have not tried etsy or other internet sales.  I am a little afraid of getting too many orders.  I once took an order for 500 hand forged nails for a museum and while I got it done it resulted in my kind of disliking making nails even now, 30+ years later.  I want the craft to remain fun for me and not become a job that I HAVE to do.  Then it is like any other job where you slog in and do it for the money even though you'd rather be doing something else.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Jimw3326]

Back in the day when I had my fab shop, 35+, my sales price was determined by my material costs. it worked out that my costs were 5%. I doubt that would be a good number now but I'm sure there's a good balance somewhere.

[Daswulf]

Havnt heard from Jeremy in a while (hope he is well) but I have to say that watching him forge would be well worth the investment in setting him up with cameras and such. Like Jennifer, he is very talented with hammer and hot steel. 

[ThomasPowers]

I chose blacksmithing to be a hobby and have NEVER wanted to do it as a job!  Any money that does trickle in goes into the "feed the forge" fund and trickles out into propane, coal and steel.  Much happier giving away stuff than to be under paid for it.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thomas, your statement rings true and is the reason why I turn away work or throw out some ridiculous number. 

Teaching and education is where I'd rather be. 

[ThomasPowers]

Of course the "ridiculous number" method can come back to bite you; much like in Donna Andrews "Revenge of the Wrought Iron Flamingos"  where the protagonist did a commission for a relative having a conflict with a HOA about her *plastic* flamingos and so has wrought iron ones made.  The smith did an excellent job; but didn't like it and so when someone at the craft show went gaga over them; names an outrageous price to do another set whereupon the person whipped out a checkbook and ordered *more*!

It's happened to me more than once; so I have learned to set the price high enough that I am happy to fund my shop while doing the commission(s).

[anvil]

Thomas, you hit the hammer square on the anvil. 

Coming from the side of being a working smith all my life, setting a shop rate is one of the last details you need to worry about. First you have to develop your skill set and experience, or know folks who have made the professional journey as a pricing guide. If you don't have the needed skills plus experience, you will, somewhere between rarely and never, price your work appropriately. Thus the very high attrition rate for being a working smith. When you do hit that sweetspot, and its different for every level of your experience, what Thomas said is quite correct. 

To paraphrase Francis Whitaker, "Theres plenty of room at the top". 

My take on that is "the top" is  floating and varies with your skillset and experience. When you are just starting out, as an example, making "S" hooks and doing crafts fairs, It doesn't take long to gain the skills and experience to be able to do well enough on the money end and don't expect it to meet your lifestyles economic needs. But if you were to attempt a railing at this level, you would most likely blow it on both time and money. If you find, at any level, that the money is not what you expect, then you either set your expectations too high, or your skills + experience aren't there yet, or both. Thus this point in your progress is where attrition is high. If you look at it this way, then the solution is obvious. And, most important, no matter your decision, to continue or not, is a very personal point and, hopefully, the correct one for your lifes journada. If you continue, you will reach these plateau's many times and the decision never gets any easier. On the other hand, all the rewards do continue to grow. 

As far as contemporary business practices, without a doubt be aware of them. However, unless failure is your end results, at each of these plateau's, until you acquire the needed skills and experience, as far as determining a "general" shop rate that covers all situations, I suggest you don't. Somebody has to pay to gain the needed skills and experience. It should not be your client, Thats bad business. They are following contemporary business practices and expect a product that has their desired quality and cost. You will not make that satisfactory wage you reached as a crafts fair blacksmith when you attempt a more advanced product. Never forget, your business is not a contemporary business, it is a nitch market business that relies on you first and foremost, having the needed skills and experience. 

If you choose to be a hobbyist or part timer, then again, contemporary business practices can only be a rough guide. You only need to make as much money as you Want, not need, to satisfy your goals. And this is totally subjective and has very little to do with running a business. Back to crafts fair sales being one of these two, Let the market determine your prices and Have Fun! 

Worked for me.

Pretty old school thinking, but hey,, what can I say.

[jlpservicesinc]

18 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Of course the "ridiculous number" method can come back to bite you; 

It's happened to me more than once; so I have learned to set the price high enough that I am happy to fund my shop while doing the commission(s).

I have never felt bad about quoting 4 or 5X over what it would take to make someone walk away, but yet they pull out their check book..    If anything it goes to show just how under valued the product truly is based on what I would assume as "shop rate".. 

I have a great appreciation for all replies and for each persons answers..  

It really shows the variety of thought processes and the independent nature of smiths.. 

Anvil..   If I only practiced at forging and item to learn to make it and then figure out the cost while forging it,  then I'd never make money. 

Every items I have ever made is custom..  I have never made the same item for more than 1 customer..   Reason why I'm saying this is " I am always learning and every time at the anvil, bench, vise, event, etc, etc, etc is always one of learning".. 

While I do "agree"  the customer who pays me to make something  "should not pay for my training" while forging their items.    Every item is one of education and learning. 

So, where do lines get blurred?  This is a rhetorical question. 

Every experience is one of learning..  

[George N. M.]

Another thing to consider, irrespective of price or shop rate, at any level of the craft is the market to which you are selling.  We sell durable goods, not consumables.  So, if someone buys a $10 brooch or S hook or a $10k railing they are unlikely to need another one very soon.  Our stuff does not wear out.

So, you can saturate a market with whatever you are making.  In a given area there are only so many folks who want S hooks, railings, sculptures, high end knives, etc. and have the disposable income to buy them. I have had the experience of setting up at the same event for several years and do very well the first year and then decline in subsequent years.  Generally, the same folk come to a particular event year after year and they do not need more of my goods in subsequent years.

So, the trick, IMO, is not to adjust your prices to get more sales or get the same money form fewer sales but to hit new markets which may be different events and different geographic locations.  You may have sold as many railings in your home area as the high end construction market will bear but that doesn't mean you have saturated the market in a town 20 or 50 or 100 miles away.  This is probably the better way to expand or maintain your sales than improving the time spent on any particuar project once you reach a reasonable level of efficiency and production.

And, yes, there are a lot more blacksmiths around than there were 30 or 40 years ago but we are still pretty thin on the ground.  It isn't often that you attend an event where there is more than one blacksmith or that there are several smiths or shops bidding on high end projects in a particular area.  At art events you seldom see more than one artist, if that, who works in forged metal as compared to painters, sculptors, or photographers.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[jlpservicesinc]

Great info George..   A great way to view recurring visits..    Because I do go to the same events year after year it's on the flipside that I have found for most it's about a 5 year turn around.. 

So for every card handed out or for every person who tells me they want latches and such it will take between 2 and 5 years to see any action on those encounters. 

This has remained the same over the last 44 years. 

I have seen from other smiths that go to events and then cut back that they have repeat customers based on price alone. 

One of the guys was getting 6.50 for S hooks in different lengths..   They asked for him directly.   Turns out they had bought 5 last year and after shopping around for more they decided 6.50 was a good deal.  LOL..  

Maybe one of the most interesting things to me is going to blacksmithing shows with items for sale.. Be it tools, axes and the like..   The smithing community on the other hand steps up with no quibble and pays what the item is marked and often times will say keep the change. 

[Daswulf]

Through talking to people at events I now know there is a guy that would probably buy about any fire poker I make and prefers longer ones.other future sales pop up from conversation too, let alone the items that always seem to sell out at the usual places. I also get ideas, comments on other saleable items.

[George N. M.]

I have found that at some events my best customers are other craftsmen who recognize good craft and appreciate the time and skill needed to produce an item.

Also, I have had it happen a number of times that I am having a so so level of sales and then one person comes along and they love my stuff and practically buy me out.  They decide that everyone in their family is getting ironwork for Christmas this year.  That one $500+ customer can make or break any particular event.

I don't do gunshows often but have had some good results at them.  Table/booth prices are often low.  Sometimes it is guys who just spent a pretty good amount of money who buy a piece of jewelry for the spouse to try to mitigate the impact of their big purchase.  Maybe I could sell flowers and choclates too.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."