Gerald Boggs Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said: The sales tax for any items made with the bought items is then collected and submitted at a rate of 6.25%... For the work around I pay the tax at time of purchase thus not needing to collect the tax at the other side as I am billing it as a service and as the tax code now is written it's acceptable.. ' That may work in Mass, but here in Virginia, according to the sale's tax folks, not allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 35 minutes ago, Marc1 said: "Sociopathic corporations" ... "Don't believe in money system" ... "Buying stuff they don't need" ... "So called professionals, expensive parasites" ... this and many other of your thoughts in the thread, are but the manifestation of what you believe sets you apart from those bad rich. Nothing wrong with believing anything you wish, not a value judgement. However ... and this is the bit that matters, if you adopt that line of thought, you can not at the same time price your work or steer your business in a way that will make you prosper. You can not because your values will stop you. Your belief system will stop you or you will turn into what you believe to be bad. Rich are bad and I don't want to turn into one of those bad parasitic sociopathic people I hate. A natural and popular train of thought, result of lifelong conditioning. Clearly a set of values that is working against you ... generally speaking of course Hi Mark1 Being rich or wealthy in a money sense for Me wouldnt be the end of the world, it would be a burden I would just have to bear LOL What my frustration is about is the supprestion of the hourly wage of people who work with their hands for a living and now there is a skill shortage starting here from a lack of apperentices and training over the last 30 years. so hopfully the wages will start to increase in the future again for skilled people but our beloved polititions have been talking about allowing more people in from overseas to fill the gaps which is Ok to a point but as long as everybody gets a fair go at a decent rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Mark, corporations and money aren’t evil. They are in fact neutral. They simply clearly illustrate the nature of smart smart upright walking apes vs the nature they wish was the case. Homo Sapian sapian forns forms violent higherarccies. We have changed a method for trading and storing labor into a replacement for a strong right arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaudry Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Shop rate is pretty area dependent, so an actual number may be less than useful to the discussion. A better benchmark is the going rate for a skilled tradesman with a shop in your area, auto repair , cabinet makers, welders etc. They have similar overhead and equipment investment and provide a product and service at an hourly rate or by the job . A perusal of their premises or local reputation will indicate pretty well how close that rate is to a livable return for their efforts. Your rate should be comparable at the very least . For that you should be fully tooled up and ready to go , able to deliver a superior product on time and at the agreed price. Plumbers and electricians are somehow in another league altogether, so if that's how you want to spend your work day , go for it. I haven't made a dollar for 22 years that didn't come from metalwork of some kind, by far most of it custom architectural forged work. This has enabled me to raise a family , buy any tool or equipment I needed , build a house and shop ,live completely debt free , send my kids to college and fund a decent retirement and take off at least a couple times a year. I don't bother to make hooks or bottle openers or anything someone can shop for on the internet. That's a race to the bottom with third world craftsmen or part time hobbyists . If I charge by the hour I include every minute I'm making the clients project a reality. site visits, design time , phone calls ,emails as well as actual work in the shop , travel time, delivery and and putting everything back afterwards, ready for the next job. Material is at cost plus a percentage. This always includes shipping and consumables related to the job. If it's a fixed quote I include all the above, figuring it all out on the high side, because it almost always takes every thing you think it will take and then some. Every once in a while you get pleasantly surprised and really make some money. The best clients are those that made their money by their own efforts and can appreciate the investment of time and equipment and skill you can bring to making their dreams a reality. The worst clients are the ones with trust funds who like to pretend they are poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Good post Beaudry. And good answers Charles et al, however you are missing the point. It does not matter if it is Ok to be rich or if it is evil/ immoral/ unpopular/ sinful. That is a moral debate. The question was asked how to price one's work. It is a classic difficulty and I am trying to show one of the main reasons ... yes there are other reasons. When you sell your work or your time, you do so to make a profit or to get paid wages. if you believe that making profit is immoral or that having high wages is reprehensible, your business is doomed. It's as simple as that. i am trying to point out that the vast majority of people have some form of glass ceiling inbuilt in their mind, and that ceiling is dictating without them knowing what they "can" earn and what they "shouldn't" earn. The most interesting part is when one challenges this beliefs, and finds that they are either vehemently denied or explained away with some popular logic. Yet the fact remains that the limiting belief is there and is stopping one from prospering every time he or she needs to set a price for something, or quote an hourly rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Personaly I would side with Beaudry and price comparable to welders and mechanichs as they deal with the same overheads. That’s what I did. I backed off a bit to the shade tree mechanic rate, but I’m not afraid to double it if you expect me to put in 50 hr weeks and get insurance for a spify handrail or gate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 10 hours ago, beaudry said: Shop rate is pretty area dependent, so an actual number may be less than useful to the discussion. I would agree with nearly 99% of what you wrote except the first sentence.. And again is the reason I created this thread and is the same reason over 40 years of my life no one talks about what they get in shop.. It's like they are afraid to say for what ever reason.. It still plays out in this thread.. If people just spit out what they charged with what they include or don't include in the shop rate it would demo graphically show the area as everybody can just look to see where the person is from.. The other facets which have been covered in regards to what personal Cap is/ or is not, also a human condition and is based on being told you aren't worth what you are asking for.. Shamed into it so to speak.. I say to the barracks with them.. People don't realize just how much money is out there in certain areas and charging 45 or 50.00 when they could be getting a full rate of pay.. The suggestion of looking around at what others are charging in other fields is a great starting point if you are way under priced and have consistent work.. You are producing hand forged goods.. If you look at what other hand crafted people are getting its pretty incredible what some are charging vs a blacksmith which people look at as a lower life form.. Kind of like a grunt.. People think its always cools but again most people including hobbyist smiths dont' know what its like to hang at the anvil making the same thing over and over and over again for 8hrs a day for a week... But, there is more to this than just charging a price or shop rate.. Most businesses fail in 5 years from start up.. This comes back to demand... This also brings up about market share and a flooded market.. A flooded market will lower the pricing point for a blacksmith but not for an auto tech.. So again.. Post rate, what is or in not included.. If you are happy or unhappy with the rate.. Is it on par with what others are getting in the area which can be within 5 states.. A good smith can set the pricing rate.. Me at 125.00 per hour is 33%-50% higher than anybody else including a shop that has been in business for 3 generations..So, a quick run down to success in blacksmithing.. Start part time with basic equipment.. produce quality wares.. start selling a few and see if demand goes up.. If demand goes up and the work load becomes more than a 3 days a week and if you consistent growth you might be able to start moving to full time.. during this whole process ideally you would be figuring out what to charge and if you are busy enough or to busy increase price point.. All this will take between 2 and 3 years.... this was the old way to do it but sets up a basic profile for any business.... Demand of product, increases sales and therefore warrants an increase in business and supplys or equipment.. Today with the internet this is can be changed as there is a much wider market share.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 JLP, please forgive me if this question side tracks the topic at hand but I feel like this is a good place to pose it with so many accomplished and hopefulls reading along here. Could someone explain to us how you figure out the cost for your consumables? I’m doing some more reading on here and other places regarding setting a good shop rate but since I don’t currently have a business I don’t know the proper way to figure consumables into the rate. I could guess how much mig wire, grinding discs, bandsaw blades, etc. I might use in a month knowing what I’m planning on producing and hope I’m close enough. However I feel that’s not the ideal approach to this given problem. Another option would be to run a couple months of production (without sales) and see what the costs actually are and then proceed to sell the wares made with the prope price with the consumables figured in. Can someone please enlighten me as to their methods? I’m sure I’m overthinking things again but need some input from someone here. I have a couple of people in the real world I plan to ask about business locally and how they come up with their rates and see if that helps any. (I personally know a man who has his own business remodeling homes for people and through him I know electricians painters plumbers etc. I know they all are going to be different but I believe they can help some seeing as they know the local market on a level I’m unfamiliar with.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Greetings Michale, That’s an easy one .. Just get a bucket mark it with the job title than put all the expired things in the bucket . Welding rods ,disc etc. Than all you have to do is figure in the expenses for welding gases , tool wear, than add in a fudge factor percentage. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Correct me if I’m wrong but I think I understand what you are saying. Do the job with the planned hourly and figure up the consumables at the end. I would imagine that after doing several different projects you can then have an educated basis for other projects in the future. Or do you do all or most projects using the bucket method you described? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Greetings, Bucket method is for large jobs that takes a lot of time to finish. . Just a way of keeping track .. Small jobs I just add 10% of the steel cost to the bill. All subject to fudge factor.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Thank you for your insight, Jim. It is much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 No matter how you start off doing it; keeping track of the actual time, consumables, unforseen costs, etc is mandatory to "correct" your basis for future work. If it's going to be a business you need to treat it like a business! I know a fellow that was a professional swordmaker; he once told me some years his profit totally depended on how he figured the depreciation on his shop equipment! Of course I believe that he had a wage for his work factored in already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Thomas, I have an app I downloaded on my phone called “hours” and you can set up multiple clocks on it. When you start working on a project you simply touch the clock next to the name and it starts counting. I have mine set to 15 minute increments where I use it to help me keep up with my hours at my day job but you can also set it to keep up with the time by the minute. It’s not perfect but it’s functional enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Welding rod, coal, propane, grinder disks, chop saw blades, sander belts, flux, pickling solution, quenching oil, paint, wax, O2, CO2 and acetylene are all consumables. Depending on your accounting structure some of those may be charged as part of 10% of labor as shop supplies, may be included in the labor may be included as incidentals as 10% of materials. This can skew the labor rate as well, if you consider quincentennial, pickle, welding gasses and forge fuel as overhead and their for include it in labor, wile some one else charges it. Some smiths don’t charge for steel, but charge a higher labor rate (depending on state sales taxes this may be good for you, if they tax materials and not labor) as mild steel is generally a small percentage of the cost vs the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 One danger on stock costs is that when you make the first X items from scrap steel; what happens to your price when you have to buy new steel to make more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 9 hours ago, Michael Cochran said: JLP, please forgive me if this question side tracks the topic at hand but I feel like this is a good place to pose it with so many accomplished and hopefulls reading along here. Could someone explain to us how you figure out the cost for your consumables? I’m doing some more reading on here and other places regarding setting a good shop rate but since I don’t currently have a business I don’t know the proper way to figure consumables into the rate. I could guess how much mig wire, grinding discs, bandsaw blades, etc. I might use in a month knowing what I’m planning on producing and hope I’m close enough. However I feel that’s not the ideal approach to this given problem. Another option would be to run a couple months of production (without sales) and see what the costs actually are and then proceed to sell the wares made with the prope price with the consumables figured in. Can someone please enlighten me as to their methods? I’m sure I’m overthinking things again but need some input from someone here. I have a couple of people in the real world I plan to ask about business locally and how they come up with their rates and see if that helps any. (I personally know a man who has his own business remodeling homes for people and through him I know electricians painters plumbers etc. I know they all are going to be different but I believe they can help some seeing as they know the local market on a level I’m unfamiliar with.) The bucket idea is fantastic on larger fabrication jobs like gates and railings and fences where the blacksmithing is accented with modern construction.. I've written this once all ready but it got deleted.. Sorry but this will be the abbreviated version.. Figuring out what to charge on fabrication jobs is pretty straight forwards as there are books on weld bead and what it = per inch of a certain wire size.. Also tig, stick or mig.. Experience becomes your friend and ideally and highly recommend keeping a forging journal.. this contains.. Quoted price/time.. finished time/price Desired, measurements, drawings, problems discovered with forging processes, secrets (how to do it faster) and then any notes as for materials, etc, etc.. A straight forge shop vs a forging and fabricating shop is a little easier to run in same ways.. In the traditional purist shop like I ran there was no welding used for any product that would leave the shop.. Thus for a given run it would cost a little more for a linear foot.. Again, ideally you want to start a small shop, then find demand (create demand) , then increase tooling as the business grows.. This way it stays balanced and you can stay in charge or on top of everything.. When you have 5 different projects going on at once it can become very overwhelming and all projects will lack.. So here are a few pages from my journal.. As I got better and better I stopped keeping as detailed notes simply because my experience got to the point that it was all upstairs.. I still kept notes but they became very simple.. A lot of the later notes are useless if I had to recreate an item now, i'd have to start over.. Here are the pages... First pic is for a hand railing.. Almost useless to recreate or even figure out what is going on.. No angles listed for the legs.. 2, is from an order with the quoted price and then the as forged/finish price.. 3, 4, is from a job earlier and you can see the level of detail.. this was from 1999.. 3 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: One danger on stock costs is that when you make the first X items from scrap steel; what happens to your price when you have to buy new steel to make more? Also quote new steel even if you use clean scrap.. the replacement costs are based on steel commodity prices which go up and down but based on the date the yard bought at.. The last few are of the lock from the drawings.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 9 hours ago, Michael Cochran said: JLP, please forgive me if this question side tracks the topic at hand but I feel like this is a good place to pose it with so many accomplished and hopefulls reading along here. Could someone explain to us how you figure out the cost for your consumables? I’m doing some more reading on here and other places regarding setting a good shop rate but since I don’t currently have a business I don’t know the proper way to figure consumables into the rate. I could guess how much mig wire, grinding discs, bandsaw blades, etc. I might use in a month knowing what I’m planning on producing and hope I’m close enough. However I feel that’s not the ideal approach to this given problem. Another option would be to run a couple months of production (without sales) and see what the costs actually are and then proceed to sell the wares made with the prope price with the consumables figured in. Can someone please enlighten me as to their methods? I’m sure I’m overthinking things again but need some input from someone here. I have a couple of people in the real world I plan to ask about business locally and how they come up with their rates and see if that helps any. (I personally know a man who has his own business remodeling homes for people and through him I know electricians painters plumbers etc. I know they all are going to be different but I believe they can help some seeing as they know the local market on a level I’m unfamiliar with.) don't do production runs unless you all ready have the items sold.... DO NOT.... If you are in the learning process take on custom orders which you know are in your skill set even if they will stretch your ability, but know you can and will come off with a great product.. Bill or quote based on the knowledge you have from playing in the shop, but understand if you go over your quoted time it will effect the bottom line and a happy customer can be return customer.. One other thing.. Depending on what you make or sell might mean it will be 1 job from a customer and that is it.. Larger orders do "NOT" merit a lower price.. Once full time you have to keep your rate.. I made thumb latch cusps for fun.. Not whole latches as I wanted to get better.. This way I only wasted about 2" with each cusp of material or less depending on how I experimented.. I could get 6 cusps out of a 12" bar.. it cost me about .45 plus coal costs.. Coal or fuel will become one of the greatest expenses as you proceed as you burn fuel as soon as the forge is lit.. (this is if the shop is part of your property).. Finding an old shop looking for some love can be a cheap way of doing it as you might only need to supply coal and have full use of the shop while there.. Again a great way to gain experience on the down low.. I used to get paid to go and do Demo's.. Still do at a few, but today there are so many hobbyist out there most fairs and such tell me to take a hike till they see what I have to offer.. By then it's to late.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Thank you, JLP, for the suggestions. I have heard the journal suggestion before and guess it’s time to find myself a good notebook to start one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 On 1/14/2018 at 6:30 AM, jlpservicesinc said: So, a quick run down to success in blacksmithing.. Start part time with basic equipment.. produce quality wares.. start selling a few and see if demand goes up.. If demand goes up and the work load becomes more than a 3 days a week and if you consistent growth you might be able to start moving to full time.. during this whole process ideally you would be figuring out what to charge and if you are busy enough or to busy increase price point.. All this will take between 2 and 3 years.... this was the old way to do it but sets up a basic profile for any business.... Demand of product, increases sales and therefore warrants an increase in business and supplys or equipment.. Today with the internet this is can be changed as there is a much wider market share.. JLP, I appreciate the desire to help people. I've watched your youtube videos and it's obvious that you really put a lot of effort into sharing what you know. That being said, this advice is making a lot of common assumptions that are very rarely correct. 95% of businesses fail in part because they take the "built it and they will come" approach that you're advocating. There's a better approach than simply jumping in and holding your breath until you surface. Especially in the context of "figuring out" what to charge. A person following your advice takes it on faith that the universe will provide within your 2-3 year timeline. Businesses abound that are at year 3 with everything mortgaged to the hilt hoping that their ship will finally come in. The hard reality is that we don't know what happens to those 95% of business failures because nobody tracks it. I've known people who died working because their retirement savings were consumed by the lenders. I've known people who imperiled their families future to such an extent that the entrepreneur ended up divorced, bankrupt, and alone. The "build it and they will come" approach is very bad advice that is ruining lives. In my last post, I laid out a cogent approach to assessing business viability. I also laid out the whys and wherefores to explain why an hourly rate is an incredibly poor methodology for the purpose of your discussion. Putting a blunter point on it. It's extremely unlikely that a shop rate plus material pricing technique will ever be capable of attributing the necessary overhead and profit without being either too expensive to find steady work or too cheap to actually support the business. The only time it will work is if the work just so happens to hit your economy of scale perfectly. For smiths banging out bottle openers, that's probably not too hard to do. For smiths pricing everything from bottle openers to castle gates, it's going to cost you dearly. It's very frustrating to me that individuals eschewing electrical welding because it's a quality short-cut are promoting ruinous business short-cuts like shop rates. Especially in the context of a specialty business that has virtually no viability in most markets due to basic economics. For goodness sake, most American's haven't seen a pay raise in a decade. Sure, there are wealthy folks out there but there are no signs that we're in the midst of a renaissance of commissioned iron-work. What we're really in is a renaissance of people making stuff, and making do for themselves. Because they're broke. You could pay just a little bit of attention to what people are actually spending their money on to see if there was the slightest hope of business viability. Admittedly, following my advice is likely to dash a lot of blacksmiths dreams. Then again, there are a lot of great reasons that you don't see blacksmith shops on every corner. On 1/13/2018 at 8:04 PM, beaudry said: Plumbers and electricians are somehow in another league altogether, so if that's how you want to spend your work day , go for it. Beaudry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Electricians in Denver aren't making enough to pay the rent. I'm bidding on work that is won and lost by under 5% on average. If we paid substantially more, we'd never hurt for electricians, if we paid substantially less, we'd have no electricians. I can't bid at a higher rate and win. I can't expect higher productivity because they're already doing their best. The hard-bid wages haven't been raised in a decade. The work is spotty and seasonal because of enormous (but profitless) government projects consume all available manpower every summer, then dry up every fall. Banks aren't loaning to small and mid-sized businesses at all. Our great salvation was to seek quieter private markets catering to high-end clients. We've chosen to lose money by avoiding layoffs despite the severe seasonal shortages of construction work. That loyalty helps us to staff work for higher-end clients. The Denver media claims everything is always booming, yet there are record numbers of homeless people. The articles report that many homeless people are actually working, so the reality is that they can't earn enough to pay the unbelievably high rent. They're building hamster houses for hipsters as fast as they can slap those ugly things up. Rent went up 125% the same year that Denver was celebrating the single largest crop of new apartment units in 15 years. I suspect that twenty years from now these hideous things will be referred to as "Depression-era" housing that was as hastily built as a refugee camp. Michael Cochran. I think the consumables aspect of your question is best answered by setting out to define the tasks on a running unit basis. For example welding would make the most sense as a linear foot cost, riveting would be an individual unit cost. Although you could take this to the extent of figuring out what your electrical utility cost is per foot of weld, I think that's probably better as an overhead item. Overhead is the cost of doing business that is not job-billable. Overhead is accrued over time, even time where you don't have work going on. That means that the individual jobs have to pay their share of the overhead to keep the business afloat. The more work you've got going, the less that share applies to each job. Simple stuff like the timing of when you're getting paid can affect whether you're making a profit, or paying down overhead. I wrote an entire article explaining it, and why it should be taken seriously. I very strongly believe that this is the single most influential component of long-term success for a small business. I suspect that overpricing little work and underpricing big work probably accounts for the majority of new businesses failure. This discussion thread has already advocated this fatal mistake several times. Combine that mistake with "build it and they will come" and you've got a recipe for failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 @rockstar.esq Sorry but I don't remember telling anybody to stop working and invest in doing blacksmithing full time.. I posted it 3 times to start out as a hobbyist and then see if the demand is there to start to create a full time business.. You might have what I wrote mixed up with something else.. By the way I am dyslexic and might leave a word out here or there, oh, I also will sometimes put words in different orders as well.. As for business failures I was referring to all businesses not just blacksmithing.. Nearly all the full time blacksmiths I know now scavenge work and will do just about any metal working job that comes down the pike.. This means having a very big hat.. Lots of newer people starting out don't have the range of skills as yet.. Again, start small and work up to it.. As to jobs in the electrical trades.. They are doing pretty good here as are heating and cooling guys.. My heat guy replaced my boiler and was here 3 days and was over 6000.00 4000.00 for labor and parts.. It really depends on what kind of market you are involved with.. Same in blacksmithing or even more so as it's a niche market.. The hardware market here is gone which is what I specialized in and while it's a great skill set and skill builder if I wanted to become involved more I'd have to find a different market or create a market.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Rockstar, thank you for the input. I will read your linked discussion when I get home and if I have any questionable I will let you know. By the way, I read most of your business type posts when I see them even though I may not need that information at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 @rockstar.esq oops sorry about that post.. I can see where it could be saying to build an inventory.. I get tired of typing the same thing to clarify and I guess it comes with having to read the whole thread vs just a piece here or there to get the full picture or context.. Anyhow, I'll write it here again.. do not build inventory.. Do a few items you think you can sell.. See how they do.. Then go from there.. I got asked by one person for a thumblatch.. It triggered the next 20 years as a blacksmith.. Ah, the good old days.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 JLP I can see the distinction you're making in terms of a staged launch. I can also appreciate the reasoning behind it in terms of limiting the risk by starting small. The problem with this experiment is that the methods affect the outcome. Being small, part-time, and low capital, the business is limited to whatever falls at the doorstep. Internet advertising is much more time-consuming than it's made out to be. Any marketing with potential to actually work, will cost dearly including/especially google. Time sunk grinding out anything other than whatever actually sells is opportunity lost. Competition abounds when there's no barrier to entry. It's a race to the bottom of the market. Being successful here often costs a business a shot at better opportunities. "Proving" that there's a part-time market, doesn't automatically prove that there's a sustainable market to pursue full time. Time is all we have, wasting it is a cost we can never recover. Now if all the same scale, time, and capital were applied to a plan based on verified markets, the outcome would be tremendously different. Knowing the buyers, or how to access the buyers of work that only your business can provide dramatically increases the potential for success. Since these buyers are the actual desired endpoint of the whole venture, why not sink the time into finding them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said: JLP I can see the distinction you're making in terms of a staged launch. I can also appreciate the reasoning behind it in terms of limiting the risk by starting small. The problem with this experiment is that the methods affect the outcome. Being small, part-time, and low capital, the business is limited to whatever falls at the doorstep. Internet advertising is much more time-consuming than it's made out to be. Any marketing with potential to actually work, will cost dearly including/especially google. Time sunk grinding out anything other than whatever actually sells is opportunity lost. Competition abounds when there's no barrier to entry. It's a race to the bottom of the market. Being successful here often costs a business a shot at better opportunities. "Proving" that there's a part-time market, doesn't automatically prove that there's a sustainable market to pursue full time. Time is all we have, wasting it is a cost we can never recover. I don't agree. Okay.. Its not an experiment its nearly how all traditional businesses were formed... 1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said: Now if all the same scale, time, and capital were applied to a plan based on verified markets, the outcome would be tremendously different. Knowing the buyers, or how to access the buyers of work that only your business can provide dramatically increases the potential for success. Since these buyers are the actual desired endpoint of the whole venture, why not sink the time into finding them? Capital?? Whats the investment.. Do you have investment capital??? Success with that model?? While it's a newer model it also has or offers the largest risk.. Your points are well and good and certainly covered all ready and the information you present is by all accounts the same thing that keeps people within a given box.. I'm not saying this to offend. . I'm saying this from the stand point of being and doing and coming up through the ranks.. I fully understand where you are coming from and all the market research.. Some people devote themselves to this type of thing almost as an archivist of sorts.. As an example of what can happen with market analytics.. (Spags was a local business.. It had been in business since 1934 and it was a huge success until the owner died and left it to the kids.. I was in there buying something and noticed on an open door, on the door was a research market analysis by a top company in the USA who does the analytics for Walmart, amazon, Target, etc, etc, etc.. They had all these companies listed for a showing off factor) ( so these studies told the kids to change the format of the store to mimic Walmart and other major brands where they would change where items were so people had to look for them)... The place was out of business in 2 years of the changes implemented.. Gone.. They went from a huge company employing hundreds, having to wait in your car because there was no parking spaces over a 10acre lot with 5 major building on it.. To nothing.. Because of that research and implementation.. People couldn't find anything.. They had customers who had been going to the store for over 20 years.. You could walk in and everything was in the same spot.. Now no one could find anything.. they were also told they should get rid of the customer service people so they could reap better profits.. Well, now there was not one to ask where anything was.. 2 years and gone.. I spent 1 year as a hobbyist in 87 as I became more serious about forging I had nearly 10 years forging experience at this time (but not a good forger). in the 2 years time I had enough work that I was busy 3 days a week.. I was living at home but still making enough money to keep me going.. I would demo here or there and this created a word of mouth clientele.. By year 3 I was being asked to go to many places and I was being paid to demo.. I was working 4 or 5 days a week.. it only got better from there.. From there I started to gain a much wider spread clientele as I was doing demo's withing a 30mile radius and producing, all custom items.. I have never had a stock list.. Way back then the only legit places for ads were in Yankee magazine or the New Yorker of which 1 Ad was a huge investment.. The internet was in it's infancy and there basically was very little in way of Blacksmithing websites which were of interest for me.. By year 5 things were going along nicely and I grew as the business grew.. Checks and balances built in so to speak.. There really are many ways to look at this and depending on your budget, marketing, resources (all), and talents and dedication. can dictate how your business does.. But with this said, these things should be understood or the person should be self aware of what they have as strengths or weaknesses.. Your response comes from someone who has what I affectionately call modern Economics theory.. Or believes that this type of behavior will create the desired income or outcome.. The old addage that it takes money to make money.. These are the same responses I got from all the business professors and business managers I worked with... It did nothing to help out a person who's desire it was to have a hand forging company.. There are only 2 factors which lead to success from a money stand point.. Supply and demand or Demand and supply.... LOL.. Again, in order to sell something you can spend all the research money you want and the business ends up dead in the water because of mismanagement.. We are talking about 1 person working at the forge, just starting out.. Not a 3 or 15 person business which is a whole different model of management.. Really its very simple.. Much simpler LOL.. Than spending to receive.. I'm sorry I found your reply comical... LOL.. I have been told many, many, many times.. " You can't do that".. Oh, that won't work.. To funny.. So, if you make a product people want (demand) and if it is priced correctly for the market share (supply) and it continues to grow with more demand and you can keep up with supply.. YOU MOST certainly will make money.... If your work orders (demand) increases to the point where you need help, or a new machine so you can produce more per hour (supply) then again you will be on the road to be successful.. Mind you the exact opposite can also take place, but why would you invest into a horse with no legs to stand on.. If you get into a market and nothing sells why stay in that market (unless you like what you are making and don't need the money to make ends meet).. Why because you can do what ever you would like.. On the other hand (which was my earlier point) you make something and it doesn't sell (lack of demand) or if you forge something and it sells but it's hit or miss.. YOu don't need to higher a company to do the research you could do on your own.. sorry but this is getting old.. I dislike having to explain everything as I am not a word smith.. I am a blacksmith.. Well really a farrier.. Its very simple.. It only becomes complicated when someone wants to introduce the complexity of can't vs can or do.. Where these is a will there is a way. You don't have to go all out.. Unless you want to.. If you spend big and end up with nothing than whos fault is it? With the internet today and the ease of setting up a website or selling on places like ebay or etsy while not ideal can give someone an income and not to be dismissed.. What is your verified market? What resources or forging experiences do you have in that market? Supply and demand.. I'd been using a rounding hammer for years and Alec Steele created in fairly short over a new market for them.. Hammers all of a sudden became a much bigger thing than the old stand bys, Hofi did the same thing.. a 15.00 hammer was no longer good enough.. Now 130.00... So, again Demand and supply or you can create your own market if you find the right product. Hofi and Alec Steele.. Fidget spinners, Or how's about pet rocks.. What I'm saying is.. Why go into blacksmithing at all.. There are many ways to make an easier living.. Or maybe if you are retired you don't need to make a living with it??? See the variables are that great.. Really I understand your point of finding the right market.. But then again not everybody is going to uproot their home and move to where the blacksmithing scene is booming.. Blacksmiths need to begin somewhere and usually it takes some sort of help beyond paying for market research.. Big business is what I take away from you post.. This really doesn't help out the little person who has nothing.. One of the things that has stuck with me all these years.. I was told that if I worked really hard at anything I would be successful... I came to realize that this is a false statement... Hard work is not the only key to success.. It's hard work applied properly in the right way at the right time.. While my suggestion will not create an over night success it will help with market validity and once you start selling stuff it will also help with expenses.. My suggestions are not for someone who is a hot shot that all ready knows a market as he or she has served a 3 year apprenticeship in a wrought iron shop with the owner making 300K a year.. People really do try to avoid this very simple question "Of what is your shop rate".. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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