Jump to content
I Forge Iron

The critical eye towards forging.


Daswulf

Recommended Posts

I have never done demos, in fact I don't even allow people in my workshop whilst I am working, but I can imagine they can be a very ungrateful experience. My wife tells me I should start something in the local "men's shed" ... I think she is trying to get rid of me :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Marc1 said:

There is a complex process behind every belief and it is very difficult to dismantle it with a frontal confrontation that usually makes it stronger. It is far better to show what we know as an alternative that can coexist with the other person's assumptions. 

I can see the wisdom in this approach, even if I can't always bring myself to follow that example.

Mark Twain excelled at revealing the ridiculous beliefs we share.  Coming up in the skilled trades I learned that a sense of humor was a critical survival tool.  A lot of conflict was avoided by making fun of our shared situation.  I didn't need to convince another tradesman to have my priorities, I just needed their cooperation so we could both get our work done.  

Kowtowing to nonsense creates a tyranny of fools.  Playing along makes stupidity seem legitimate.  When you see other people play along with something stupid it makes you wonder if you're the only one who's bothered by it.  Meanwhile, the stupid is getting fed to where it's too difficult to painlessly remove.  The worst part of it is that frivolous differences are made into big distractions so those who could fix problems, are paralyzed by fear of conflict.  

This isn't a random accident, it's the natural order of things.  The truth is a bit like daylight, we used to think it was good for us.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I've posted before about methods to correct people, particularly parents, when they are spreading misinformation about smithing at demos with things like:

"That was generally thought for many years; but recent research has shown that XYZ is what actually happens when we do this."   

or "That was how it was done when they used to use real wrought iron; but with the advent of more modern steels we now prefer to do it this way..." 

Confirming their previous ideas and then indicating that the current thought on the matter has progressed.

Of course there is when they tell their children; "Look he's making a horseshoe" and you hold up the rose you are forging and say "You should see the horse that wears this!"

A reply that starts with a "yes you are right", or "I absolutely agree" followed by what you would have said anyway, defuses tension, makes the other party believe they actually are onto something and will wrestle his attention for a few seconds anyway. If you have ever trained salesman you would be familiar with this. :)

 

2 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

Mark Twain excelled at revealing the ridiculous beliefs we share.  Coming up in the skilled trades I learned that a sense of humor was a critical survival tool.  A lot of conflict was avoided by making fun of our shared situation.  I didn't need to convince another tradesman to have my priorities, I just needed their cooperation so we could both get our work done.  

Reminds me when I worked in a shop fitting factory and would talk to myself whilst working and taking measurements. I would say 22.6 to 226mm  because I thought in cm and not mm. Wasn't bothering anyone but others took offence, thought I was incompetent and referred to my measurements as "alien language". Far from becoming incensed I thought it was rather funny that people would be so provincial, and decided to make fun of myself by using the most extravagant measuring unit I cold fathom (pun intended) and correcting myself in the process, it soon become a joke and no one bothered me anymore after a nundinae or two. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read this far expecting SOMEONE to mention Dunning & Kruger. MUST I do EVERYTHING? 

When you get right down to it humans only have two advantages in life, thumbs and big brains. Thumbs like any tool are only as good as the mind controlling them so we depend on our brains above all else. For hundreds of thousands of years our lives have depended on THAT bit of knowledge and it's been bred into us. We're always looking for the "magic" bit of knowledge, it's where the "secret of the craft" is, learn the secret and that's all you really need is a myth we've invented. Sure it's true in some occasions, just enough to maintain the myth. Knowing what kind of sapling makes the best spear or club could well mean survival or not. Would you know which rock is best for knapping into a useful tool, which one makes a better hammer stone if someone didn't show or tell you? On and on.

There's a good reason for axioms like, "A little knowledge is dangerous" When a person is exploring unknown territory every bit of knowledge is important so even little bits can assume exaggerated significance. If all you know about the blacksmith's craft is what your: Dad said about Grand Father, you read in a novel or see on TV then that's significant. . . to YOU. There's nothing new, we all do it though hopefully as we gain the experience of finding out how wrong what we "know" can be we gain the wisdom to know we're probably wrong in the beginning. 

We're social critters so passing knowledge on to our mates is also hard wired. It's not so much about showing off though that comes into it, we're very competitive after all. If you've ever played the party game "telegraph"(?) where one person tells the first person in line something say, "Bob likes spicy pirogies and strawberry smoothies for breakfast." That person tells the next and so on. Then everybody recites what they were told. The more a thing is repeated the further information degrades. Preserving important knowledge in an oral tradition is probably how chants, songs and dances were developed. Dance is a pretty universal language among the northern polar rim people. You can learn a language by  watching the dances and listening to the songs while you learn about important skills and facts. Say NEVER lay stretched out straight on the ice when seal hunting or an Orca might come up through the ice and take you. OR maybe a 1,000 lb. sea lion might come and mate with you.:o

Add to that our competitive nature, that's hard wired in even more strongly, competing for resources is only second to reproduction to all living things and heck we have to compete to reproduce.

This leaves us with a situation where, call them observers, having a limited understanding of what they're looking at want to pass on what they know to other spectators. Correcting them can be a touchy task. Saving face is also pretty hardwired in so giving a person an out like Thomas describes is important.  It's just too easy to turn a discussion between a knowledgeable person and an observer into a competitive event.

This often happens in an otherwise inconsequential discussion sometimes there isn't even a real difference of opinion, maybe just a different word choice. Unfortunately once a person establishes a position any change can appear as a threat so we're likely to rationalize exaggerated reasons why we're more right than the other and it goes down hill from there. Happens all the time. 

For example a while back a few of us were in a discussion started by a probable troll and things were going down hill fast. I'd made the mistake of engaging in the troll's game and was getting irritated so when I PMed another fellow who was getting sucked in I didn't word it very well. I told him in other words, he was making himself look "bad," not the other guys. I turned someone who only disagreed into someone who resented me and I felt the same. It's been a hard road trying to let things die down and I only rarely and carefully respond to threads he's involved in. It REALLY sucked, I was only doing what I'd do for any friend and instead maybe made an enemy. He's not a bad guy, has good information, likes to help folk, in short an asset to Iforge and I can't talk to him. 

We got trolled, I'll bet that toilet treasure was smiling. It's why I'm so constantly saying, "Don't feed the trolls!" Since the accident I have trouble with my emotions, I get mad at the drop of a hat and have a quick tongue. I have a sticky on my computer to remind me to NOT engage things that tick me off. Things can go from a little irritating to raging very quickly for me. I have to walk away. I also discovered the satisfaction of ignoring folk who want to argue so I state my case and they can take it or leave it. 

Sorry for the long ramble, I can't help myself. I'll  stop now, hopefully before your head's pounding too hard.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Frosty said:

The more a thing is repeated the further information degrades.

The "telegraph" game (I learned it as "telephone", but I'm younger than Frosty) is actually a pretty poor demonstration of the (supposed) unreliability of oral tradition. Frosty is quite right about the use of dance and chant in cultural transmission (and the subject of how oral tradition poets could memorize epic poems is fascinating in itself), but there's also the fact that oral tradition is by nature PUBLIC. You're not dealing with something whispered one time with mistakes repeated and amplified; you've got one person telling a story and another saying, "Hey, that's not what happened!" or "That's not how that story goes! Tell it right!" Like IFI, there's a certain self-correcting and self-regulating aspect to oral tradition that counterbalances the absence of a written record.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frosty ... I am sorry you need a sticker on your computer. As far as I am concerned I am unable to hold a grudge for more than a day or two. Life is too interesting to do that. 

I think that Dunning and Kruger is overkill for what Das has described. It implies that the person doing the questioning is "a person of low abilities incapable to recognise it's own ineptitude". Way too many assumptions for a situation that you correctly describe as a natural result of our human nature. 

And then again it focuses on 'the other person' when this case it seems, should focus on the one that actually knows his stuff. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

I've read this far expecting SOMEONE to mention Dunning & Kruger. MUST I do EVERYTHING? 

 

2 hours ago, JHCC said:

I don't feel sufficiently confident in my own ability to do that.

JHCC is writing some Jedi master level comedy here!  

Paraphrasing from Wikipedia page on Dunning-Kruger effect;

A cognitive bias wherein people of low ability mistakenly believe their cognitive ability as greater than it is.  Conversely, people of high ability erroneously assume that tasks they find easy to perform are easy for everyone else or that other people have a similar understanding of subjects that they themselves are well-versed in.

The short version: Incompetents tend to be confident and experts tend to be insecure.  Both parties score themselves as average.

All of which is why I think JHCC is an expert comic!

 

Marc1,  I'm not sure I follow your point.  Wouldn't Dunning-Kruger be an observation of human nature?  More to the point in this thread, the D-K test found that "poor performers do not learn from feedback suggesting a need to improve" (I'm quoting wiki).  That generally supports your advice to avoid confrontation.  If they're inclined to improve their performance, they'll have to learn from feedback.  That might happen without them giving Das the thanks he deserves, but D-K offers a plausible explanation for this ridiculous pattern of behavior.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said:

Marc1,  I'm not sure I follow your point.  Wouldn't Dunning-Kruger be an observation of human nature?  

When I was working in a government office I had a copy of D&K framed on my desk. In my view most people who hold office and their minions managing government departments qualify for the " cognitive bias of illusory superiority ".

Going back to the original post by Das, he was telling us his experience with people who had gained some slanted view of some aspects of blacksmithing and were quick to pass their opinion as fact, with Das' understandable annoyance.

The reasons why the public may behave like that is complex and sure, generally speaking in some cases D&K seems to provide an explanation of interest for a sociologist.

 I was interested in pointing out that it is far more productive to gain the person's trust then it is to expose the person to ridicule. Easy to say from my armchair of course and may be obvious in hindsight yet hard to control in that moment. Just an observation.

And to make sure, not a negative reflection on Das who I held in high esteem.

Just like I do Frost :)

Oh and you too ... :P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Woah, easy there Marc. Don't hold me too high I might get light headed. :blink:

This has brought out a way more intellectual conversation then I had thought it would. I have been reading along with great interest. Even with the somewhat differing opinions I keep swaying back and forth in seeing the logic behind them.  

When it gets down to it I just at least have to try to explain some truth to what they think they understand wether they want to hear it or not. I've never said I know it all, I don't, but I can try with what I do know. Thomas has a good point of how he approaches it if that case works for the situation. 

When they flat out don't want to accept a differing view of what they think they know, I just have to walk away because it would be like banging my head against a wall. ( come to think about it I run into situations like that at work as well.) 

Believe me it is easier to show a person something then to just explain it. I use that method when available. 

Someone who wants to know more is always willing to listen, even if skeptical, they can do more research to see if it is correct or not.  Most people are perceptive and enjoy learning more. Some would argue a falsehood even if you put the truth in their hands. 

I'll go back to reading/ listening mode. :) 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marc1,  thanks for the expanation, I genuinely appreciate you as well.  

Das, and Frosty,

Your comments remind me of experiences I had as an apprentice.  There was a journeyman who was very religious on a job site.  He used his authority over apprentices to force a one-sided debate on the merits of his faith.  He got a lot of practice because apprentices didn't stay assigned to him for very long.  It's a difficult position for an apprentice because they're reprimanded for any kind of disobedience or disrespect.  Losing your temper with a Journeyman can get you cut from the program. 

Well on my first day with him, he started off asking for my religious views.  I came to see that there really wasn't a "correct answer" because he was angling for opportunities to display his perceived superiority.  It wasn't disrespectful so much as it was exhausting.  As I was packing up for the day he told me that "the first step to knowledge is to trust in God".  I responded "See I always figured the first step to knowledge was to seek it."  His face lit up with laughter and he conceded the point.  We got along famously for the remainder of that project. He knew a lot about a variety of topics, I'm glad I got to see that side of him.  

In contrast, I worked with a journeyman who was a hopeless contrarian.  He argued about everything, including the directions he had just provided.  It was so bad that I started to have nightmares that consisted of nothing more than an average conversation with him!  I never really found a solution with him.  I found the most successful approach was to reply to his contradictions as though a third-party journeyman had told me to do it.  I'm not sure I can properly convey how difficult it is to have a person like this up on a lift calling out pipe bending measurements for the apprentice to make.  He adamantly refused to answer any questions about his methodology or expectations.  The infuriating part is that he wasn't giving bogus information, he was constantly changing his mind on how things would be done without telling me. 

While I wouldn't wish that Journeyman on my enemy, I can see parallels between that Journeyman and troubleshooting.  A lot of troubleshooting information comes without context, or references that would allow certainty.  Checking what you really know is as important as checking what was measured.  I've had situations where a stack up of errors summed up to a plausible answer.  I've also had situations where a failure in one system created spurious readings in another.  It can be a struggle to understand how "unrelated" systems can be affected when they're not connected.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Convictions are a double edged sword ... They are rigid, intransigent, and most of the time restricted and punctual. All rather negative connotations. 

If you ever get into a debate about "global warming", that is the hypothesis that human activity generated CO2 is producing catastrophic changes to the climate, you will be able to see how harmful convictions and beliefs can be to any side, in any exchange. 

I remember the times when doctors would ridicule patients who believed vitamins would help them recover and how they used to scoff them by saying it makes for expensive urine. 

It took decades to change this attitude and a little known attempt by the european union parliament in Brussels to pass legislation that supplements need a prescription. European citizen where so incensed that they sent millions of emails to the parliamentarians and crashed the computers for many days.  

I know a little about a few things, perhaps a bit more than average in some subjects, however I am utterly aware of my limitations and that I, like most folks know very little about almost everything.

If you add to that the little we know about what we assume to be real and what probably is not, the words of Socrates (or Plato if you wish) seem the most appropriate ...

"The only thing I know ... is that I know nothing" ... 

This makes convictions and firm beliefs so very relative. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but global warming is whether the earth's climate is warming up.  A lot of people like to link it to whether people are responsible for it; but that's a separate matter.  Sort of like"Was this guy shot?"  vs " Did Fred shoot him?"

Bringing people into it makes it easier to argue against it---even while the glaciers are disappearing from Glacier National Park; You have to walk a mile+ from the rail stop to one famous glacier in the alps, High altitude archaeology is a booming field in the Andes, Greenland's ice cap is decreasing as well as antarctic ice and sea level is rising.

Personally I don't care WHAT is responsible; I think the question is "What can we do to deal with it?" (I've read that some of the multinational Ag companies are buying land in Canada, betting that it will become prime farmland in the future...) Me I'm living where all the ice can melt and not cause any sea level issues...we're about 4500 feet above sea level...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/11/2018 at 4:09 PM, Marc1 said:

Convictions are a double edged sword ... They are rigid, intransigent, and most of the time restricted and punctual. All rather negative connotations. 

Marc1,

In my work as an estimator I am surrounded by incomplete information that's rigidly enforced for a limited amount of time.  Uncertainty is the reason it's called an estimate rather than a quote.  I think human nature is why clients can only "quote" the lowest number they heard.  When they quote a number from an estimate, it's often presented like a fixed amount that's independent of any conditions or context.

I suppose that all of the above is why very few people choose to do this job.  

I think that the notion that any property of human nature is inherently negative is debatable.  I use the uncertainty created by incomplete information to my advantage all the time.  That goes way beyond "gotcha" change -orders. Often I can present options that save money for the client, and increase the quality for the designer while making a profit for my company.  In that way I'm responsive and respectful of everyone's convictions without accepting one-sided dealing.  

Problems in whatever form they take, are also opportunities.  That's admittedly little consolation when I'm starving for work and my convictions prevent me from cheating like my competitors do.  For what it's worth, we're currently busy with jobs I wouldn't have been invited to if we'd pursued corruption. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, interesting replies. I hope no one minds if I continue on this philosophical exchange.

Thomas, I am aware of both sides of the global warming debate. I only called it as an example of something that shows how intransigent people can become based on their own convictions on a subject where clearly no one knows much at all,  even if everyone pretends to be an expert and have "all the science" in their favour. Historical examples abound ... geocentrism, flat earth, witches  ... (Who said climate is what you hope for and weather is what you get?)

Imagine what would happen if you jump on a soapbox at the next blacksmith demo and start disserting on your version of events on climate. Do you think you will get some very convinced fellows challenging you? You bet!

Your field opponent will be fierce and convinced of your ignorance and the need to give you a verbal beating, yet despite his zeal, it is highly likely that your hypothetical denigrator just like everyone else,  knows very little about anything to do with climate, but has his values, beliefs and convictions lined up and set in concrete from age 10. All he has done since then is look for anything that is compatible with what he already believes and is convinced of. Not searching for knowledge or truth, but for a compatible prefabricated set of values that fits nicely with the array of values he has accepted without much challenge way before he had the age to discern. 

Rocky ... my previous post may give the impression I support relativism. i don't.

 I respect moral absolutes and those who have the fortitude to defend and uphold them even if it leads to a temporary loss.  Challenge moral absolutes with relativism is the job some politicians seem to enjoy, and whoever does not compromise his own values is intolerant ... apparently. :)

My interest in this topic has to do with what seems imperative for the human being, to align, associate, group, label, pigeonhole or in some way or another feel that "we" are part of something that thinks in one way whilst "they" on the other hand must be placed in such other category because ... well, take your pick.  

Since humans are gregarious this is understandable and it leads to those who join a train of thought to belong ... without much scrutiny, or the opposite, to challenge and show to be a contrarian and therefore belong ... well somewhere else.

I bet many wars have started with this mechanism. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/11/2018 at 10:22 PM, Marc1 said:

All he has done since then is look for anything that is compatible with what he already believes and is convinced of. Not searching for knowledge or truth, but for a compatible prefabricated set of values that fits nicely with the array of values he has accepted without much challenge way before he had the age to discern. 

For the sake of brevity, this is called the Confirmation Bias. 

Just thought i would throw that in. Please return to your regularly scheduled philosophy debate. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...