Advice for creators of YouTube videos

[ThomasPowers]

I never understood fads...

[Charcold]

4 hours ago, JHCC said:

And yet, people keep making them!

i think it comes down to most people, even when trying to make money, being somewhat lazy. You get the bright idea that you can make a video and the money will just pour in. Watch a few "how to make passive income" videos, that's a huge fad among my generation. The number one suggestion is "make a video instructing something and collect income from the views." But that info is outdated, after adpocolypse youtube change how they monetize videos, and its less view based and a lot harder to make money. Still people are getting the message that being a content creator is an easy way to augment their income, which isn't really the case. Sadly it only takes a few minutes and no prep to make a video like xxxxxxxxx made, he just set up the camera for 1 shot and did 2 chop edits. Likely 10 minutes of editing. Might have even been a cellphone camera. 

xxxxxxxx mentioned in a video that most of his videos lifetime will make 5-15$, and he's one of the "popular" smiths with high views. He also doesn't fill his videos with the number of ads some do tho. 

Names of third party's removed

[rockstar.esq]

I think there are a couple of points that haven't  been made yet.

First off, just about any topic has exponentially more "beginner" lessons than moderate or advanced.  If your personal skills/ knowledge exceed beginner level, there simply isn't much for you and that's by design.  Think about the audience for a "master" level lesson.  They're difficult to please and there's far fewer of them than rookies.  My bet is very few tenured professors are spending their time reading beginner text books in their field.  

Second, most of the "advanced" stuff I've picked up from videos or posts comes almost accidentally.  There's a gent with a channel called "DF in the shop" who makes "beginner" lesson videos.  I'd say one in ten videos will have a moment where he makes a comment almost as an aside that reveals a much more advanced level of knowledge.  

Third, I think a lot of people have bought into the modern HR notion that credentials, networking, time-served degrees, and fealty to dominant PC trends are a valid proxy for knowledge, competence, and ability.  I don't believe that's ever been true.  Virtually every avenue to working prosperity has been bottlenecked by gatekeeper institutions who have lapsed in their  founding duty to ensure quality control among their members.  I think we're seeing how the public reaction to this obstruction is to work around these institutions.    Youtube is just such a workaround.

There was a road through the town by my high school.  One of my teachers had lived in the town when that road was a cow path connecting a pasture and barn along a neighbors property corner.  Over the many years it became a major road with an annoying jog in it midway through a block.  At the time I attended the school, there was nothing on either side of the road to merit swerving nearly 100' out of line.  Well the paved road followed the dirt road, which followed the trail, which followed the cow path.  According to my teacher, the farmers neighbor sold their plot when the traffic got bad.  The easements won't allow the road to be straightened, nor could anyone find a use for the vacant land.

When seen from above, that workaround doesn't look like it was a master's stroke.  The perfectly ordered streets surrounding city hall would look much better in comparison.  Then again, city hall isn't located where most of the population works.

Metaphorically speaking, a whole lot of gatekeeper institutions are like that.  Everything is ordered, expensive, and completely disconnected from what the working population needs.

I think we can avoid error-ridden workarounds by changing institutional incentives.  Generally speaking, I think we need to make it profitable for the wrong people, to do the right thing.  

 

[ThomasPowers]

While there are many levels of learning; I don't like folks teaching WRONG information even to beginners.  I do tell folks in my classes that some of the stuff I'm teaching them is perfectly correct for this level of instruction; but will change as they get more advanced. Example proper forging temperature in a propane forge: when they are starting out with mild steel *HOT* works best; if they move on to high alloy steels, you can get them too hot and so they will have to learn the appropriate forging temperatures for different alloys. 

Now that I think about it: This is rather like learning Newtonian Physics in High School and learning Relativistic Physics in College.  Both are "true" within their limitations, (and most folks never need the relativistic stuff...)

[Glenn]

We need to recognize the types of videos, otherwise it gets confusing try to keep up.

Using a video to transfer knowledge or information does not have to be a slick high end production. It just needs to provide the information in an acceptably pleasant and informative manner. 

Using a video for entertainment usually depends on the charisma of the host and may or may not contain good information. Usually there is just enough substance to hold it together. Then there is the "Hey y'all, watch this" video which is a train wreck in progress. You watch to see what happens.

Using a video as an infomercial can be a combination of the above, with the purpose of selling a product or service. They can be well produced, contain some information to get your attention and encourage you to view the rest of the video, just before telling you to open your wallet.

Using a video to generate numbers of views is out there hoping to hit the big pay day. It is intentionally entertaining so the presenter may suggest you hit the subscribe button or like button to boost their numbers. 

Once you determine the type of video your watching, you can them make an informed decision as to the content. There may be tidbits of useful information in each type video, if you are willing to sort through the entire video to get to the tidbit.

The drawback of the video media is that it is a directional media, and you are lured in with a tease to click their video over the next video in line. There is no way to change the video, correct any misinformation, correct wrong information, or alert folks to dangerous or unsafe suggestions contained in the video. You are a captive audience for their opinion. Video is a directional media, one way toward the viewer. The only option is to move on.

[Charcold]

34 minutes ago, rockstar.esq said:

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I think we can avoid error-ridden workarounds by changing institutional incentives.  Generally speaking, I think we need to make it profitable for the wrong people, to do the right thing.  

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. One thing in favor of that is Youtube's new model for monetizing videos. Rather than supporting clickbait as they used to views and ad plays are far less lucrative. They also raised the ceiling on all metrics to make it harder to start earning. In the olden days you'd start earning revenue based on clicks and ad plays right away, and it would scale to better levels as you got more popular. Now adays the algorithm is far more complicated, you need to have consistent views, a good like/dislike ratio, avoid content that can demonetize you (such as swearing), subscribers, and most importantly ad clicks and ad buys. Since moving over to google ads and after a few controversies youtube wanted to clean up it's image to be more advertiser friendly. so they demonetize  mature content more, and use a fancy algorithm to try and match creators with applicable ads for their content. this in theory should cut down on clickbaity things as people don't usually buy from ads on clickbait videos and should make people think harder before getting into it as it's harder to rise up the ranks. 

I'm keeping an eye on streaming, artisan streamers are on the rise in a lot of crafts. and i think long form open speech is a better medium for blacksmith instruction than 10 minute videos. 

[ThomasPowers]

Getting the right ads is always an issue.  Many a time on a forum I'd be giving a bad review to a product only to be deluged by ads for it.

"The person who designed this should be forced to circumnavigate the world in a Yugo equipped with only a set of whitworth wrenches and billfold full of old lira..."

[Charcold]

Oh man yeah, I'm sure we've all had a scary moment at one point or another when we typed a word somewhere only to get bombarded by google ads for that all across the internet and thought "how did they know"? 

[VaughnT]

I like watching videos from people who are new to making videos just because it's interesting to see them advance in making better and better videos.

But the quality of the content has to be there.  I'm not interested in the least by "entertainment" videos because they aren't generally anywhere as entertaining as the maker thinks they are.  

Subject knowledge is the primary thing, but quality camerawork is also very important.  I don't need snazzy soundtracks and tons of jumping around.  Good clean camera angles that allow me to see what's being done -- that's the important thing.  You honestly don't even have to say a word throughout the entire video.  Let the pictures do the talking for you, and I'll sit through an hour-long video without complaint as long as the lighting and camera lets me see what's going on.

[rockstar.esq]

Charcold,

I appreciate where you're coming from but I disagree with respect to the youtube monitization thing. Youtube is acting as a gatekeeper and they're doing bupkiss for quality control beyond the typical politically-correct pablum.  There are a lot of high quality educational videos that are blocked, de-monitized, or otherwise censored without explanation.  The power they wield over content creators is absolute.  As soon as a new "digital kingdom" is tall enough to cast a shadow, the same old protectionist racket falls into place.  Naturally, workarounds to youtube are underway.

Glenn made some excellent points about the variety of motivations that factor heavily into the video content.  It would be truly unfair to rate a silly joke video on it's educational merit.

That being said, people watch youtube because they're not getting what they want through other mediums.  The majority of youtube channels are done by people with far fewer resources than the established, or traditional sources of similar information. 

Putting it  another way, the industries of television, radio, publishing, advertising, and higher ed have driven ordinary people away with high prices, low quality, and little return on investment.  They have to be very repellent for people to actively choose to consume lower quality media as a replacement. 

It occurs to me that IFI likely has members that could team up and produce videos that give the viewing public what it wants and needs.  Anything that valuable should remain on the site.

[ThomasPowers]

Don't forget folks like things easy; few of us would end up smiths if we had to learn under some of the old European Masters.  (I've talked with folks who did and I know I would never have put up with the abuse...) Higher Ed requires time, effort and money here in the USA---at least for the science/technical degrees.  It acts as a filter on people who do not have the drive to do the work.

Remember the Music Man musical and how the protagonist sold people on not having to do the hard work of learning to play an instrument?  I consider much of YouTube/television/movies to be the same. Even some books---I read a book or two in a Fantasy series written by an adolescence and noticed the same---you didn't have to study, practice, *work* for your skill; it was innate and only needed to be discovered. 

[Lou L]

It may be hubris of us, but I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor for members new and old to create an “acceptable instruction” list of YouTube channels on blacksmithing.  We already have a list generated but perhaps it should be updated with a set of standards for the content.  I, for one, would enjoy the discussion involved when members here debate the merits of channels.  I’m not even certain if Black Bear Forge is on the current list but I know he is spectacular.  His channel should be called “curmudgeon tube”.

SEE....I just started the conversation by accident!

[rockstar.esq]

On 4/19/2018 at 5:52 PM, ThomasPowers said:

Higher Ed requires time, effort and money here in the USA---at least for the science/technical degrees.  It acts as a filter on people who do not have the drive to do the work.

Thomas,

Ah yes, the "weed out classes" which are supposedly sparing society of all the unworthy who couldn't teach themselves advanced collegiate material right out of high school.  Sure, we'll say it's because students wouldn't put in the work, or they lacked sufficient character.  Of course we're screening applicants because we're selective and driven to excellence.  Or maybe we're chasing politically correct trends...

All of which begs the question, why are so many "selected" students washing out?  Perhaps the selection process isn't calibrated to graduation?  What if a teaching institution was measured (and rewarded) on it's ability to impart practical knowledge to paying customers?

If such a system was implemented, I rather doubt that business model would allow administrators to outnumber faculty as they currently do in so many institutions.  

Just like any protectionist scheme rigged to bottleneck a vocation, its gateway is protected by smug assurances that only the worthy are allowed to enter.  Once someone is through, there's no effort to ensure they're doing quality work. 

Can anyone name an engineer who majorly screwed up that had their diploma revoked?  In my entire career, I've never even heard of an engineer losing their license, let alone paying for their malfeasance, corruption, or incompetence.  Huge projects suffer catastrophic failures and the public never hears the engineer of records name. 

Speaking from first-hand experience, I can say that I learned a great deal in college.  I can also say that very little of what I learned applies to my working life.  I believe this outcome is both common, and absolutely intentional.  It's a bad deal for the student and for the vocation they pursue. 

I believe this is because the schools bear no liability for the quality of their product.  I think it's remarkable how much public faith is placed in higher-ed to solve problems that only exist because higher-ed isn't faithful to the public.

To be successful in life will require workarounds.  New college grads don't know enough to be immediately useful to industry.  Bootstrappers will have gaps in their knowledge and political capital that higher ed would have filled.  

Things that can't go on forever, won't.  

Lou L

A curated list of resources is a fine starting point, but I think it falls well short of actually teaching a student.  So much of education is treated like it's unrelated knowledge.  That knowledge is rarely applied to practical examples.  If and when a practical example is given, little attention is paid to productivity, efficiency, or quality control within the confines of a working environment.

By way of example, I was recently pinch-hitting on a job site where we needed to make a construction milestone.  The panels had to be turned on so they could run the permanent heat.  There were three panels that needed all their circuitry landed to the terminals.  An apprentice was on his second day of trying and he hadn't finished half of his first panel.  I finished two panels and had to move him aside to finish the work in time to make our deadline.  He was half my age, in better shape, and by all accounts a pretty sharp apprentice.  As I was working I noticed that he was inefficient with his motions and his tools.  I taught him how to cut and strip a wire in a quarter of the time he was taking.  I also taught him simple stuff like twirling the tape perpendicular to your finished wrap before pulling it apart. That generates a little tag on both the roll and the wrap so it's easier to undo without tools when necessary. Also it's harder to accidentally drop the roll with your finger in the center of the loop.

He didn't adapt very well and honestly, I didn't have the time to repeat the lessons.  I can appreciate how my lesson probably didn't look like it saved much time from his perspective.  He was surprised and a little upset when I finished the second panel and told him to stand aside so I could finish the work.  He had been working hard and doing his best.  His final product was good, he was just slow.  It just didn't seem possible to him that the niggly details I taught him would make such a difference.

If I were to pick a video demonstrating how to terminate wires in a panel, I might have overlooked inefficiency of motion because my primary teaching concern would be clear instruction for a safe and secure installation.  As I said, this apprentice is a sharp and hardworking guy.  If I were working with him from the start of his training, I would have encouraged efficiency of motion from the start.  My demonstration would by default, show the most efficient way that I know of to accomplish a given task.

[JHCC]

17 hours ago, Lou L said:

I’m not even certain if Black Bear Forge is on the current list but I know he is spectacular.

Yes, it is.

[Latticino]

2 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

Once someone is through, there's no effort to ensure they're doing quality work. 

Can anyone name an engineer who majorly screwed up that had their diploma revoked?  In my entire career, I've never even heard of an engineer losing their license, let alone paying for their malfeasance, corruption, or incompetence.  Huge projects suffer catastrophic failures and the public never hears the engineer of records name.

As a certified professional engineer I take some exception to this.  While I've not directly worked with engineers who have lost their PE certification (much more industry critical than a simple higher education diploma, though the latter is typically required to allow one to test for the former, with PE stamps required for most, if not all, construction projects - at least in my state), it certainly has happened.  As far as paying for gross mistakes, I'm sure you are aware of the E&O (Errors and Omissions) insurance that most consulting firms carry to cover themselves when the finger pointing on a project starts.  Trust me, no one would carry same if not required.

We are also required to participate in an approved continuing education effort throughout our career.  Feel free to check the local office of professions website for your state to see local requirements.  In addition to the effort to maintain a certification, there are increasing efforts for design oversight that include required third party commissioning reviews of the design phase as well as energy efficiency and code compliance reviews.

I've been on the other side of the bench as well, and know that for every engineer that makes a calculation error or gross mistake due to inexperience or design phase time pressure there is a contractor or CM who cuts corners on material selection, doesn't coordinate with other trades, uses laborers with minimal experience instead of apprentices or journeymen... 

[Lou L]

rockstar.esq, I honestly couldn’t agree with you more.  There are severe limitations to the teaching potential in YouTube.  It is entirely passive learning.  Prior to the Industrial Revolution, most people learned hands on, as an apprentice at “something”. (I know I’m generalizing).  Since then, schools were designed to House the growing population and prepare them.  As society advanced, more youth required education in a school and fewer were entering apprenticeships.  Now, all children in our society go to school and learn passively. They are ALL prepared for the same few college tracks.  Every student in America, essentially, is being prepared to go to a four year liberal arts college.  We are practicing the exact model of education, with very little alteration, that we did 200 years ago.

   If a high school student’s education was work-based and supplemented in a classroom things would be different.  They figured it out probably 3000 years ago and we have lost our way.  We have created a concept called adolescence, tacked the label on teens, and decided that they were in societal limbo.  They aren’t helpless children but they can’t be productive members of society yet either.  200 years ago most of them would already be shouldering some of the burden of helping the family survive.

There is so much to it...the problem of how we teach the next generation is a complex lattice of issues.  Still, in the context of blacksmithing (and a number of other skill sets) there is some value to learning on YouTube.  Knowledge that is sought out aggressively is superior to that which is spoon fed to an apathetic subject.  People who seek out information are more likely to actually practice it soon thereafter.  Of course it would be ideal if they could work one on one with that person in the video.  Even then, there is no guarantee that they could put aside their ego and allow their desire for mastery to win out (likely the problem of the younger electrician you worked with).  

I dont know why why it is so hard for us, as a society, to figure out how to teach people what and how they need.  I don’t know why some people choose a career just to be mediocre in it.  But I do know that the internet has made all of the knowledge (and misinformation) in the world available democratically.  The purpose of this site (bestowed upon us by Glenn) includes the proliferation of information to benefit experienced smiths and to support new ones.  I think we could consider it a duty to inform new smiths (myself included) about the quality of information presented on YouTube.  It would be a service to the community and a real hoot for us to debate the qualities of the content.

[jlpservicesinc]

Well as a Youtube Creator.. This is very interesting...      I have to confess I make videos that I believe fill in some gaps  or give greater understanding of a particular skill set..  The problem I run into is " It's the skill set I am showing".. Not the finished product which should speak for itself..   And many people look at the item made as the idea behind the video..  

I am confronted and would get discouraged with most content on Youtube and the stuff that is being shown as blacksmithing both in basics and advanced concepts..  it's the whole 20/20 vision thing..  Once you know it, it's easy to look behind you and understand the mistakes...  It's a whole other affair when these mistakes are being shown as gospel and because these people have a huge following the mistakes are never corrected and everybody else picks up these mistakes.. 

As a side note"  I encourage all peoples to leave feedback on the videos good or bad..  Nothing bothers me like someone living a thumbs down but not saying the reason why..  

As it's be pointed out the video I produce are learning oriented..  And not entertaining..   

That is the whole idea..   I produce videos I would want to watch..  They are in no way perfect  but each and ever one of them, is just me sitting down and forging something.. Literally, and even some of the items made are the first time using the technique to make the particular item, since I usually do things in a faster way.. But the technique themselves again are what I aim to teach..   

If anybody has any suggestions in content, or suggestions as to make the channel more usable I am open to it..   By the way, I make no money from the videos nor do I promote or sell product from them..   They are free and the time I have to put in to edit them is astronomical..  I'd be lucky to produce 1 video a week unless it was my full time job..   

Very interesting thread..  

[arkie]

Jennifer, your videos are top quality, A+.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

1 hour ago, arkie said:

Jennifer, your videos are top quality, A+.

+ 1 on that, I have learned some new stuff from her, even after being in the forge for around 30 years. Go's to show you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[Frosty]

You are one of the folk who produce good smithing videos Jenifer. Good solid instructional material rather than entertainment. Good stuff.

There are others but for the new folk winnowing the wheat from the chaff can be impossible, it takes a basis of knowledge they often just don't have.  For those of us who have some experience we can learn from literally everyone we watch at the anvil. A few classics have been posted here in the category of, "Holy Moly I didn't think ANYBODY would do something THAT dangerous!!"

Don't do THAT is probably as valuable a video type as you can watch. Learn from other's mistakes is a good thing. Unfortunately if you don't know it's a mistake? Beginners can find them selves practicing mistakes to perfection. 

I don't think trying to improve Youtube video quality is worth the effort beyond reporting the blatantly dangerous or illegal, anymore than it's a surprise Face Book isn't a secure place to post confidential or personal information. I think the best we can do is try to prevent new folk from practicing the wrong things by leading by example. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Lou L]

It’s fate I guess, because Black Bear Forge just posted a video yesterday or the day before talking about this topic.  He suggested people SPAM his comment section with suggestions for other good channels.  It was telling that his viewers appear to be “in the know” for the most part because their suggestions were mostly highly credible.

jlpservicesinc's Channel was suggested by more than one person.  Many suggested that young man in England whose videos have become much less instructive and more about entertainment.  Though, he does good work talking constantly about safety and PPE...so he does have value.  What it comes down to is that, on YouTube, if you want to get lots of traffic you have to make knives on a blacksmithing channel.  Torbjörn Åhman is one of the few exceptions.  A number of people regularly comment that they don’t even understand what he is doing but they find themselves mesmerized and “at peace” watching him work in silence.  His nature scenes he shows during breaks while a piece is annealing help out with the calm vibe of his videos.  He really belongs on PBS.  I think I’m going to watch one of his videos now, before I go to bed!

[JHCC]

If you're looking for something on YouTube that is meditative and shows high levels of craftsmanship (although, alas, not in blacksmithing), check out the channel from the Corning Museum of Glass.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks guys.. Means a lot..    I'll just keep making videos as I go along... If the fan base was growing steady enough I'd look at putting more resources to it but the channel while it is growing slowly (it's more like a trickle).. LOL..    And with Youtube changing the monitization thing to 1000 subs  it just makes it harder to devote the time when there is so much going on else where..  

Again I don't do it for the money but all this stuff takes money and time..  The extra cameras and then processing the video with an older computer makes me question if it's really worth doing unless there is something I feel is worth sharing.. 

Thanks again guys..  Feedback is SOOOOOoooooo helpful..  

[1forgeur]

It is definitely worth yor time  (grin). Whatever you want to hammer out I will watch you.

[rockstar.esq]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:17 PM, Latticino said:

As a certified professional engineer I take some exception to this.  While I've not directly worked with engineers who have lost their PE certification (much more industry critical than a simple higher education diploma, though the latter is typically required to allow one to test for the former, with PE stamps required for most, if not all, construction projects - at least in my state), it certainly has happened.  As far as paying for gross mistakes, I'm sure you are aware of the E&O (Errors and Omissions) insurance that most consulting firms carry to cover themselves when the finger pointing on a project starts.  Trust me, no one would carry same if not required.

Latticino, I'm glad to hear that there is some measure of accountability in terms of the P.E. license.  That said,  your comment reinforces my point about how the schools minting these professionals never do any quality-control post graduation.

Continuing education is every vocations answer to quality control.  It's yet another unaccountable school that's worked it's way into a gatekeeper position.  Nobody's checking whether the graduates of these schools are better or worse.  It's just assumed that "more school" is always a valid substitute for quality control.  I don't think it is. Electricians have to do code updates to maintain their licenses too.  While important, knowledge of the code isn't the definitive measure of quality electrical work.  It's entirely possible to ruin lots of expensive stuff without violating the NEC or running afoul of OSHA.  

You mentioned the E&O insurance and I completely agree that it's required.  Insurance isn't the same thing as accountable.  I've literally never had a project where the engineer paid anything for a mistake they caused, no matter how expensive.  Third party commissioning is certainly coming into vogue but it's primary purpose in my area is to tweak building management system settings for energy consumption.

In terms of quality-control, I can say that everything an electrician does gets inspected.  In my area, any inspector can and will suspend an electricians license for incompetence.  In contrast, the electrical engineer's plans are "reviewed" by the City plans examiner.  It's virtually guaranteed that the engineer(s) will have to make corrections to the plans.  Some prominent engineering firms average four revisions before they can get their design approved.  I see the dated revisions on the plans, which show how it takes these firms several months to get these really ordinary designs approved.  It's common for design teams to take longer to draw the project than it takes contractors to build it.  

Many design teams are paid hourly before the construction contract and as percentage of the total upon completion.   They're literally  paid more for going slow in design and exceeding their clients budget with changes post construction contract.  Delays and cost over-runs are easily blamed on the General Contractor because most contracts don't assign responsibility for outcomes to the parties most capable of mitigating the risk.  The one-sided nature of these contracts drives reasonable people out of this business (I'd leave if I could).  I would also like to point out that the most commonly used construction contract  template was created by the American Institute of Architects. 

You also mentioned contractors taking shortcuts.  To put it bluntly, society lost faith in the construction industry a long time ago.  Without question, all the shortcuts and abuses you mentioned are constant problems.  I'll offer no excuses for it because it disgusts me.  I believe Construction Management degree programs like the one I earned aren't fixing the problem, they're making it worse.  Compared to fifteen years ago, there are twice as many "managers" as their are workers today.  I don't think that's an improvement.