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I Forge Iron

Can you tell


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16 hours ago, John McPherson said:

... literally my job to evaluate shortcomings and educate on how to surpass them.

This. I think the strong reactions to Zeroclick's line of questioning aren't so much a denial of the ability of experienced individuals to make accurate assessments of newcomers to their fields. 

I think it has more to do with the fact that, after spending a short amount of time with a student, the guest smith on the podcast didn't evaluate and educate like John is saying. He evaluated and dismissed.

If a student is willing to work through any and all shortcomings that have been evaluated (hopefully in a constructive way that helps them forward), why can't they succeed? (I know, this is a big "if)

 

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It really comes down to desire. If a person really want to succeed they will. If you take 10 min and look at thirty different smith's work you will see thirty different styles and forms that comes from there mind and there hammer. Art is subjective. One smith can make the most beautiful piece and it will sit there and the other schlock and it sells. Which one is right, 

I have seen two brothers one with a heart full of desire and could not forge out a single piece where the other brother could care less and hammered out the project with ease. 

I have seen many students strive But its the instructor that can  empower the student with confidence so even if it doesn't come out the first they keep trying.

I feel sorry for the student that was reviewed and cast aside

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7 hours ago, arftist said:

Either you have good eye-hand coordination or you don't.

Disagree. Quick Google search reveals tons of ways to improve eye-hand coordination. 

Another one of those things that on the surface is assumed as purely innate but isn't. 

Also, personal anecdote: I went from a service industry to a trade working with my hands last year.  I'm astonished by the improvements in my eye-hand coordination after a year of constant use of varying hand tools, as opposed to occasional use as a DIYer. 

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Natural talent vs. acquired skill is a tricky problem. I think that anyone can develop proficiency with enough practice, but having a natural aptitude for something seems to help a lot. on the other hand, someone who has a leaning for something but never practices can be ousted by a less naturally talented person with more perseverance. OK, so an example. Besides blacksmithing, my main hobby/pastime is music. I was not born with a natural talent for singing. I was not tone deaf, but that was about the most that could be said of me. Didn't stop me from singing, much to the chagrin of my family. Anyway,  we met a man who was a skillful (and naturally talented) singer and musician. I took vocal lessons from him on a weakly bases for a while, and he was able to teach me how to sing. It was not a simple or easy learning curve. I spent hours upon hours practicing different kinds of warm up drills, oral stretches, scales, proper breathing, and a bunch of other crap that a naturally talented person wouldn't have to endure. The result? I can now sing. Some folks have even flattered me so much as to call me a good singer. I know some people who can just open there mouths and heaven come out. No effort, no training, no practice. I am not one of those people, but through hard work I was able to learn the skill. So a word of encouragement to those of you who are frustrated because you don't "have talent". If you were not born with skill in a particular area, you were born with potential for that skill. You just need to invest the time and effort to grow, build, and nurturer it.

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The statement is often used flipantly and more meaning one cannot invisage this person becoming whatever at this time or from the current observations, rather actually infuring the definative. Not all terms of phrase are universally used and not always in the same context. However if it was meant as read then no, one cannot make such an appraisal in a short time.

One can assess an individuals current skill level in short order with reasonable accuracy but predicting potential takes observation over time.and even then may be flawed.

I had the pleasure of tutoring a student with learning difficulties, who, by all measures of the establishment and after many assessments by those more learned than I was universally assumed to be unlikely to ever be able to recite the alphabet in it's entirity without fault. I took 4 years of hard work and shear determination by both of us, A lot of thinking outside the box by me but he did it. This may not seem a great deal to most people but to the learner it was a lifetime achievement he aspired to but never thought he would attain.

If you write a person off by making inacurate off the cuff assessments, the only person that has failed is the assessor.

 

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Being an advanced level flintknapper who has taught classes and many students, I can say that some pick it up faster than others.  Those with natural abilities in the hand eye coordination dept. do advance quicker. I imagine the same sort of thing can be found with forging.  Being a newbie blacksmith, I feel I'm picking it up faster because my hands are used to striking small areas with tools (in flintknapping you have to use a percussion tool to hit a platform on the flint in order to remove flakes).  I think your vocation helps as well.  I've noticed carpenters, and craftsmen pick up flintknapping quicker than someone who doesn't work with their hands.

Something I've also noticed is that people I've taught sometimes never progress beyond a certain level of work.  I have a guy who I taught years ago who's still making simple arrowheads that are thick and full of problems.  Others are doing work that is better than mine in some aspects.  I'll bet the same goes for forging.  I will say though that I've taught a lot of people to flintknapp over the years and there is no way I could look at someone doing it the first time and tell you they'd never "go pro".  I'm just the opposite, I see people and know they will be pick it up fast and do great things.  Others I know will have to work harder at it.  I'd never write anyone off whose doing it for the first time.  I'm sure some of the old "Jedi's" on here have observed the same things teaching newbies like me.

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On 11/20/2017 at 9:19 AM, Zeroclick said:

this guy was never going to be able to go professional

There is something missing at the end of that feller's statement.  ...and let me bask in the glory of being his teacher with minimal effort on my part.

With an attitude like that, one might conclude this teacher would never make a good teacher.  However, I would give him a chance if he'd see his prejudice.

A fitting analogy is the smith who discards a funky, bent up piece of scrap steel with the epithet "it'll never make art".  We all know those who can see past the ugliness and bring the beauty out.  

 

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