First Crucible Steel Run, and Forging.

[DanielC]

These are carbide formers. When the ingot solidifies, these trace elements precipitate out first and make their place in the Ingot very stable. Chemistry, melt temp, solidification rate, ingot preparation, and forging afterward is a consistent, very well orchestrated process. These will be gathering points for cementite later. The steel is worked at specific temps without failure every time. I used to grind into the bar and look at what structures I have going on under the scope to know when to begin forging at different temperatures, but it's now second nature. 

 

Much like it became second nature to the smiths in India, Turkey or Syria. Except they were producing dozens and dozens of ingots at a time. They learned by repetition.

 

Edit: I have several kilos of FerroVanadium, FerroChromium, FerroNiobium, FerroTungsten, etc..

Other steels with these elements can be used in the mix as well. In the end, reducing ore isn't all that important for the final.product. That is just chemistry.

[Frosty]

Are these powder alloys?

I was given a number of little plastic bottles of powdered alloys right after the accident. Like I was going to start making damascus blades all of a sudden. I didn't take that much brain damage. I remember tungsten and nickel but there were others. 

Same, similar?

Frosty The Lucky.

[DanielC]

It's possible but....

I'm going on a limb here don't take offense this is just observation...

There was a time period when some of the older smiths (older than me, prevalent smiths in the 80s and 90s) that thought using thermite was a good way to make alloyed steels. It can be, and it can get a lot hotter than conventional means..temps that can melt some high melting point pure metals like Tungsten. It was just a big thing among the mastersmith Rybar and others. Maybe those came from the thermite crowd.

 

Ferro alloys have lower melting temps than their respective pure alloys, and blend well with iron and steel. They are used today in steel production but seemingly not easy to get.

 

The magic is in the forging though. The forging is specific to what's in the Ingot as everything matters.

[ThomasPowers]

Do you remember that fellow on the Sword Forum who was using thermite to make special alloys---up until the Dr told him that even with his PPE he was going blind from it.

[DanielC]

My friend Mac McKinnon told me about that. Improper welding glasses or something. Needed at least shade 5?

[Scott NC]

On 5/4/2022 at 10:37 AM, Buzzkill said:

I am following with great interest and I suspect many others are as well.

  I am too.  I don't have a grasp on a lot of it, but it is interesting and you never know.  I don't pipe up on a lot of things on the forum because I'm in the process of learning.  It's fun.  Thanks Daniel.

[Frosty]

I took a look at the powder alloys I was gifted and they're a spray deposition product by eutectic of Canada. The bottles don't say much about alloy beyond very general description. It's like they expect anybody buying the stuff to  know what they're doing! Two contain nickel and at least one tungsten. Two more just have # designators. 

I have a bunch of ball bearings Maybe I'll see what happens. Not today though I have another project in the works.

Frosty The Lucky.

[LeeJustice]

Those powders are very likely powder intended for use in thermal spray, it is a surface engineering technology/process.

[JHCC]

I've been reading Knife Engineering by Larrin Thomas, wherein he talks a lot about powder metallurgy steels; it's quite an interesting process. For those unfamiliar with it, one of the problems with making high-alloy steels is the tendency of the alloying elements to migrate to different parts of the ingot as it cools after the initial pour; this means that the alloy content is not consistent or uniform through the entire finished bar. Powder metallurgy steels get around this by dripping the melted steel through a nozzle where it then gets blown apart by a jet of high-pressure nitrogen, forcing it to cool instantly without banding or segregation. The resulting powder is packed into mild steel cannisters and fused into solid bars under some serious heat and pressure. 

In sum, it's a great way to produce high-alloy steels with very precise metallurgy and very specific performance characteristics. It's also devilishly expensive, which is why you probably won't find me making any knives out of CPM-4V, CPM-CruWear, Vanadis 8, or the like any time soon.

 

[ThomasPowers]

But doesn't "Hot Isostatic Pressing"  sound like something you will get moderated for mentioning?!

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that most users don't need excessively high end alloys for their knives.  Rather like most car drivers do not need a Ferrari 296 GTB.  All part of the hype to sell things...

[JHCC]

I've been watching some videos lately featuring a rather grumpy UK knifemaker and metallurgist who remarks at one point that "the only real advantage of powder met steel is that the owner's now got bragging rights that my knife is better than yours." He also mentions that it is "an absolute pig to work with" and that whereas he usually calculates his overhead at least in part on the basis of how many knives he'll be able to grind with one belt, with powder met steels, it's a question of how many belts he'll need to use to grind one blade. His closing comment on that is, "I do like powder met steels. I just don't like working with them." Gotta love the honesty.

[Frosty]

Should I have added "thermal" when I said "spray deposition"? "Torch deposition" was a common term in the day too. I might even have an old spray torch I could hook up but . . .  <shudder> 

You know, thinking about it I wonder if I could spray interesting pattern welded billets. Soap stone masks maybe and contrasting alloys. Hmmmmm. . . Soap stone stencils 

If I show up at a conference with a knife with a snowman's pattern welded face winking at you, you'll know it works. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

14 hours ago, Frosty said:

 a knife with a snowman's pattern welded face winking at you

  Do you have a pre-order list yet?  Sign me up....

[LeeJustice]

It originated as flame spray way back in the day, now comes in the form of Air Plasma Spray, Vacuum Plasma Spray, Low Pressure Plasma Spray, wire flame spray, arc spray, High Velocity Oxygen Fuel, High Velocity Air Fuel and Detonation Gun but the original method of flame spraying is still used today where appropriate.

[Frosty]

3 hours ago, Nodebt said:

  Do you have a pre-order list yet?  Sign me up....

Sure. Please allow 8-10 years for delivery of COD orders from, Maybe Someday Blades. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  Chalk me up for 500.  Never mind COD, just charge it to my company Some Day Pay.

[Scott NC]

  If you look at the top of this "sculpture" you will see where something has been applied.  It is a "hammer" or "knife" out of a hammer mill for ginding up soybean hulls.  Lee, have you any idea what it would be and how it was applied?

[Frosty]

Someday it is.

Frosty The Lucky.

[DanielC]

I'll try to save the servers and only upload 5 from a different one getting polished and etched. Will do a good coffee dip after this after I electro-etch my logo in.

[TravisM]

That looks great, what are you going to make from that bar?

[DanielC]

Thanks. This puck has been forged and made into 3 kitchen knives and a section of it is promised to one of my favorite Master Smiths for his own personal carry.

 

Im not finished with any of the knives. The previous pictures and even this were only after one quick dip in diluted nitric acid. They are due for a coffee dip next to make the darks darker.

[anvil]

Beautiful

[LeeJustice]

NoDebt, sorry I did not see your photo and question until now.  It looks like probably a hard=faced weld application.  Thermal spray applications do not hold up too well to impact and not often exceed a thickness of a millimeter or two.

[TravisM]

Beautiful looking knife. The profile looks great too.  That's my go to handle shape in my chef knives. 

After forging what is your heat treating process?  How do you find the performance of your steel? Edge retention and all that? 

[DanielC]

Heat treatment is similar to normal modern steels, though playing around with it can alter the appearance of the pattern.

I find that it works well in the high hardness ranges, but it starts very high. This particular flavor of steel gets harder than anything I've ever dealt with, and I play with steels like 1.2519, 1.2442, 125SC, Aogami1/2, Shirogami2, 26C3, W2, 1095, etc...I treat all of these steels in the 64-66rc range with thin edges. I make hocho style japanese knives and shape with stones and stone polish for kasumi finishes a lot. With that said this particular alloy has a higher top hardness. I don't have a rockwell tester at the moment as I've relied on Mathew Parkinsons hardness chisels over the years and really didn't need to know anything beyond 64-66rc, so I just haven't purchased one. However the steel reacts to my diamond plated as harder than anything over ever lain on them. I would estimate 68-70rc, which after talking to a few other wootz friends, this isn't unheard of at all. Not to mention the steel at this carbon concentration is around 25% iron carbide by volume, which cementite usually pegs around 71rc.

I try to dial it back to 64 (which takes a bit over 400F to get down to) for realistic hardnesses that I'm used to. Doesn't seem any more or less chippy for me, but I'm very careful with geometry/edge geometry so that always helps.