Charles R. Stevens Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Belief is a difficult thing to overcome. In my less generous moments I think that the smarter one is the less firmly we hold beliefs. Unlike many farriers I see the shoe as a therapeutic appliance, certainly useful for treating specific medical issues. But like JLP nature/god created the horse bare foot. We humans creat most hoof problems threw breaking or husbandry. But many will wish me stoned for that "belief" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 19, 2017 Author Share Posted November 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Belief is a difficult thing to overcome. In my less generous moments I think that the smarter one is the less firmly we hold beliefs. Unlike many farriers I see the shoe as a therapeutic appliance, certainly useful for treating specific medical issues. But like JLP nature/god created the horse bare foot. We humans creat most hoof problems threw breaking or husbandry. But many will wish me stoned for that "belief" lol @Charles R. Stevens See here is the thing.. Most farrier types think I started out as a barefoot zealot which is not true at all.. I was a shoeing farrier and even today I shoe some horses if it is absolutely required by the owner.. Today it's a process but will turn down new customers if they want shoes for the sake of shoes... Ideally as long as it's not complete and udder jibberous I always listen with an open mind., sadly for me internet conversations can be way to abstract. but there are tidbits of information everywhere and truth is true no matter what you throw at it.. No gray matter in truth.. It is or isn't.. No maybe or could be, or would be.. Simply is... You and I would get along just fine either at the forge or out shoeing horses.. Like minds and all.... It's all about the horse.. not politics or hearsay.. I dislike speaking or demonstrating in public but I have been know a time or to to jump up and set a person in the right direction when needed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Yes mam,, their is a difference when you belive the horse is your client wile the "owner" is measly the one signing the check. I didn't grow up around horses. So I whent in about the time bare foot trimming became a viable option. I learned to ride, keep horses and care for feet from place with out preconceived notions. So need less to say I ride different, I feed diferent and practice farrierry different than most. A lot of time I have spent reading precopyright blacksmithing, horse keeping, farrier and military manuals, a time when horses were still vital to mans economic and military servival. I also have read a lot of modern treaties on farrierry, vetcare and anatomical engineering. I took school and my own reserch directly to the horse and asked them, just as I do what I learn about blacksmithing, I take what I think I know to the anvil. I would be honored to head a horse for you dear lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 On 11/19/2017 at 1:05 PM, jlpservicesinc said: Ill be looking forwards to it.. .:) Nope the rest of the horses life which is usually much longer with no shoes.. This particular issue or topic has been beatin to death on here " Vs for vs against" vs Debunking barefoot vs shoes.. etc, etc.. I'm for it.. All traditionally trained Farriers are against.. At this point I no longer discuss it with traditionally trained farriers as it's 99% a waste of my time.. Needless to say but its a hot topic.. Does Traditionally trained farriers = "cowboy shoers"? Thinking back id say unless you have a foot problem, and as long as the hoof can handle the wear, keep them barefoot. Thats what i tried to have my customers do. Sounds like thats where you stand. One of my regrets is that i was primarily a cold shoer. Not because hotwork is better for the horse but because i could have been in the fire on a daily basis much earlier in my career. I did teach myself how to forge pony and draft horse shoes. But not near as quick and nice as now. I believed then as i do now that ow you make the shoe takes a big second to how you set the hoof and shape the shoe. Your times above reinforce that belief. If you cant fit that shoe properly as well cold as hot,,, yer just a cowboy shoer. ive had a few um, discussions about this as well. Im glad there was no internet then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 About were I am, when I do shoe I typicaly modify keg shoes hot to form square toes and manufacture leather pads with artificial frogs (unless the horse has enugh frog to touch the ground shod. Rare occasions call for egg bars or more often than not a reversed shoe with new holes punched in it. Am I the only one who prefers rimmed shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, anvil said: Does Traditionally trained farriers = "cowboy shoers"? Thinking back id say unless you have a foot problem, and as long as the hoof can handle the wear, keep them barefoot. Thats what i tried to have my customers do. Sounds like thats where you stand. One of my regrets is that i was primarily a cold shoer. Not because hotwork is better for the horse but because i could have been in the fire on a daily basis much earlier in my career. I did teach myself how to forge pony and draft horse shoes. But not near as quick and nice as now. I believed then as i do now that ow you make the shoe takes a big second to how you set the hoof and shape the shoe. Your times above reinforce that belief. If you cant fit that shoe properly as well cold as hot,,, yer just a cowboy shoer. ive had a few um, discussions about this as well. Im glad there was no internet then. See here is the thing.. We feel the same way.. I was a cold shoer and still am when the call arises... As it was explained to me and it made perfect sense.. If you can level a horses foot absolutely flat, then you should be able to flatten a shoe absolutely flat and then there is no reason for burning the shoe into the foot which just destroys the keratin and basically cooks the tissues around it... the hoof has a lot of moisture in it.. You can see it if the foot is on the mat and it ,moves.. There is a wet spot.. Water boils and turns to steam.. Anyhow I'm with you.. 29 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said: About were I am, when I do shoe I typicaly modify keg shoes hot to form square toes and manufacture leather pads with artificial frogs (unless the horse has enugh frog to touch the ground shod. Rare occasions call for egg bars or more often than not a reversed shoe with new holes punched in it. Am I the only one who prefers rimmed shoes. And with you also.. Sole support becomes or is the most important part of the function of the hoof.. This does not mean fitting the shoe tight to the sole as the sole is designed for pressure give and take and not constant pressure like when a shoe is applied with not enough clearance.. I used to make a ton of shoes and at some point will make a few how to's on it.. I to back in the day before I switched over to barefoot would forge out primarily from stock shoes (keggers) and forge weld on or make from scratch but also open toe egg or heart bar shoes.. I like a rimmed shoe as long as there is plenty of break over.. In other words I like a training plate vs a race plate... I use Eventer shoes now and are the only ones I keep in stock up to size 4... I also like a huge radius on the inside web so there i no chance of sole contact.. The relieving of sole hoof material or IE not over thinning the sole because of over trimming the hoof wall is also very important.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Am I the only one who prefers rimmed shoes. 31 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: I like a rimmed shoe as long as there is plenty of break over.. In other words I like a training plate vs a race plate... I use Eventer shoes now and are the only ones I keep in stock up to size 4... I also like a huge radius on the inside web so there i no chance of sole contact.. The relieving of sole hoof material or IE not over thinning the sole because of over trimming the hoof wall is also very important.. Far be it from me to be a pain in everybody's butt about this, but yes we've all been trained that sole pressure is bad. We all knife it out as concave as we can, we all seat out the bearing surface with a hammer, some folks use an angle grinder. Judges at certifications go all around under the shoe with a credit card making sure there's clearance. Problem is when we come back to see that beast again the shoe is always flush on the foot and/or filled under with dirt. Seems our sole pressure relief is temporary at best Then the natural BS folks come along and tell us anything in front of the frog apex is "distortion" and they radically set shoes back till it's riding on sole. Having seen this a few times, as well as people not worrying too much about relieving sole pressure and horses going just fine anyway, I can't help but wonder is this really as important as we've always believed? And yeah guys rim or British concave is great. Should fit the bill for almost anything. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 We won't ever agree 100% George, lol but we still respect on another and that's what's important. Leaving the sole and frog alone is old tech as is protecting the tip of the coffin bone. Grass eaters and shoe everything are both extremes, and like politics extremes are dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 A trick I learned at the track wAs to not relieve the sole just past the white line and we'll inboard of racing plate. The sole looks relieved, and it won't cause soreness. However, when running g it is enough to cause the horse to think about other things than running and costs rival time. I can't believe that anybody would set the shoe back onto the sole. 1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said: If you can level a horses foot absolutely flat, then you should be able to flatten a shoe absolutely flat and then there is no reason for burning the shoe into the foot which just destroys the keratin and basically cooks the tissues around it... the hoof has a lot of moisture in it.. You can see it if the foot is on the mat and it ,moves.. There is a wet spot.. Water boils and turns to steam.. Anyhow I'm with you To level the hood and level the hood is the first basic that must be mastered. Without that shoes tend to come off. I learned that burning the shoe into the hood,, hotshoeing was a draft horse thing and not a good thing for the lighter breeds for the reasons you state plus the hood is not thick enough to protect it from the heat. Never done that. For that reason I've always considered hot shoeing to be making and shaping the shoes, then nailed on cold. I think that being able to level a foot, set the angles, fit a shoe flat and tight have served me well with my blacksmithing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 31 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said: Grass eaters and shoe everything are both extremes, and like politics extremes are dangerous. True that 10 minutes ago, anvil said: I can't believe that anybody would set the shoe back onto the sole. Yeah the natural BS folks do. Comes from a "more is better" mindset that inevitably gets people into trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 BS = bull pucky? I'm assuming they must dub off the toe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, anvil said: I can't believe that anybody would set the shoe back onto the sole. To level the hood and level the hood is the first basic that must be mastered. Without that shoes tend to come off. I learned that burning the shoe into the hood,, hotshoeing was a draft horse thing and not a good thing for the lighter breeds for the reasons you state plus the hood is not thick enough to protect it from the heat. Never done that. For that reason I've always considered hot shoeing to be making and shaping the shoes, then nailed on cold. I think that being able to level a foot, set the angles, fit a shoe flat and tight have served me well with my blacksmithing If the hoof is distorted away from the coffin bone and not paralel , the shoe ideally should be placed or set back to where the hoof wall would be if there was no distortion.. Filing off the toe to paper thin to make it look better does nothing to address the toe distortion.. Nearly all farrier organizations don't see distortions as a problem to be fixed.. Same with flares.. Flares on a well trimmed horse are there because of imbalance so if the horse continues to have a flare after a few trimmings or shoeing s it's because of the lack of hoof balance.. A flare on a well trimmed foot is because of a lack of pressure.. IE non pressure bearing.. Removing this flare or toe distortion to make it look nice is conventional farrier work.. I totally disagree with this practice.. If you balance the hoof for proper weight bearing the flares will disappear all on their own.. Every video, and every farrier I have ever seen work files back the flares so it looks better vs function.. Again, the whole process could be better and if more people understood why these problems exist and worked towards fixing them... functional vs fixed and functional is the problem I have with conventional farrier teaching and works.... I was there I drank the cool aid and was a conventional horse shoer for years before I started looking for answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Interesting, and I'm one of those farriers who rarely removes the wall from the outside. Years ago a group of us(my farrier class) did some experiments thru New Mexico State University on the pounds per square inch on the bearing surface. Only the bottom of the wall. We calculated "standing weight. Then recalculated what the increase was when flair or "cleaning up the hoof"was removed. Force increased asymptotically, not linearly. I was a convert. It was easy to see that if you rasped flair off the quarters, they remained weak. If you fit the shoe to the flair and removed it via nippers, it took about 3 sets of shoes for the flair to go away. And you then had full thickness of this horse to support his weight and deal with the force of moving. This is pretty cool. I "quit" full time around '83. Set my last shoes about 10 years ago and my last trims haven't arrived yet, but very few. To drag my theory up is cool, and finding someone with similar thoughts is rare. Even "back in the day" I don't remember ever running into anyone with the same ideas. After my 3rd or 4th year I became pretty selective with my customers. I absolutely refused stables run by, usually a lady and wife of a lawyer or doctor or stock broker who fancied herself gods gift to the horse world. When a really she was no more than living g proof of what we farriers learn quick. There are far more horses asses in the world than horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Answers are there for people who want them not for people who need them...... Hoof imbalance and distortion plays out in nearly every horse I have ever seen in domestication... It's a matter of addressing these problems in a clear and concise way that puts the horses feet into a position to heal themselves and this is what the "Barefoot hoof movement " is striving for George vs just following what you were taught and then using any tidbit of information you can find produced by traditional farriers whether they use their own money or not sadly this is the reason things don't change.. Innovation starts with people looking for answers in a place that no one else dared look despite critics or naysayers.. I used to run barefoot myself back in the 90s and every body would tell me... Oh you going to ruin your feet.. LOL.. You are so stupid to run barefoot.. Guess what running barefoot or with open 5 separate toed shoes is promoted now.. Anyhow, if you believe you are offering the most up to date professional service and you are comfortable and proud of your work and your customers are happy than that is all that matters.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 No need to dob the toe, just round it as you do with a trim. Not only dose it protect the tip of the coffin bone it also eliminates the winning from the can chasers about hearing shoes clack my exes second horse ran faster bare foot than shod, her first had sever club and laminitis cased buy 12 years on the track, she had to have a thin shoe and accrilic. A medical appliance. Still ran like a storied butted ape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Well, after watching Jennifer's video on the unwelded ring trivet, I couldn't resist it...had to give it a try. I was reluctant to post my results but Jennifer talked me into it. Instead of the 3/16" x 2" x 9" stock she used I only had some 1/4" x 2" laying around and cut it to 12" instead of 9" length to make a larger ring. Her video is spot on with instructions. The 1/4" is a bit more difficult to open up into a circle than the thinner 3/16", but it worked anyway. The ring got a bit narrower than the planned 1" wide in one area (upper left part), but I had to make a LOT of passes hammering around the horn, so I probably got a bit heavy handed on that segment. I liked the square mortise/tenons for the feet to keep them from turning. Completed trivet is about 9" O.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Good Morning Arkie Looks great. If you want to have a little fun, take a small chisel and make some marks to give the feet, Toes. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 @arkie that came out great.. Thanks for posting it.. Not to put you on the spot as you all ready went out on the limb to post your trivet but, Was there anything you discovered while doing the ring that was not covered clearly enough in the "how to" video? I like the idea of the feet as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 6 hours ago, swedefiddle said: Good Morning Arkie Looks great. If you want to have a little fun, take a small chisel and make some marks to give the feet, Toes. Neil I thought about that when I made them. Considered duck's feet LOL! 1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said: @arkie that came out great.. Thanks for posting it.. Not to put you on the spot as you all ready went out on the limb to post your trivet but, Was there anything you discovered while doing the ring that was not covered clearly enough in the "how to" video? I like the idea of the feet as well.. Jennifer, the video is great as is. If it works, don't fix it. The PIP really helps visualize things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 Nice job! Must be the "good teacher" effect Happy New Year one and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 Here here and cheers to all. Happy New Year.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I am new to smithing and have been looking for a video like this for a while, so first off, thanks for the good video! Second, I really want to try this with round bar as I want to make a ship's wheel type ring. Is there anything I should know before just grabbing a chunk of 2" round bar and following this type of process? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 2" round bar will probably need a large forge, jib crane, power equipment or a large cheater and very large and rigid shop equipment. Last time I needed to work some 2.5" sq stock we welded a 1" bar on it for a handle and I borrowed the large equipment of another smith including a 200# Chambersburg air hammer. If your wheel was 4' across it would weigh over 125 pounds just for the 2" stock rim. You would need to heat more than a 12' length to try to bend it smoothly in one go. Tighter bends would be even harder to make! NOT a beginners project!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elciteeve Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: 2" round bar will probably need a large forge, jib crane, power equipment or a large cheater and very large and rigid shop equipment. Last time I needed to work some 2.5" sq stock we welded a 1" bar on it for a handle and I borrowed the large equipment of another smith including a 200# Chambersburg air hammer. If your wheel was 4' across it would weigh over 125 pounds just for the 2" stock rim. You would need to heat more than a 12' length to try to bend it smoothly in one go. Tighter bends would be even harder to make! NOT a beginners project!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I should have clarified a bit more. I wanted to follow the process in the video - like how the flat bar was split in the middle, this would leave me with ~ 1" round bar (or half round ish bar that I would round into nice round bar) and It's going to look like a ships wheel - but it will only be 8" in diameter. So the total length of the stock would be about 12 - 14". The forge I use is a pretty decent two burner forge, I think it could heat the 2" bar ok (I can achieve weld temps with it using 1" stock pretty easily) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 8 x 3.14159 != 12-14 it's 2 ' and you will need to allow extra to hold onto while you try to bend half round the hard way. So the details make the difference and splitting 2" is an extra hassle---can you source half round? would railing cap work for your project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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