CheschireCat Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Being a newish smith I need tooling. Easiest to get it is buying it or making. With no budget I therefore make my own. I bought a great big cold chisel from princess auto (Canadian habour freight) (The chisel in question:<link removed>) , forged it, ground it, and attempted to harden it. First in a Synthetic machine oil, it being still soft I restarted from square one (Anneal, temperature cycle ect...) I then tried a room temperature water quench. It was slightly harder but still too soft to keep a chisel edge. According to this Bladesmithforum thread (<link removed>)(ps. Mods I don't know If I'm allowed to link to outside forums. please do let me know if I'm not allowed. <Mod note: Generally considered bad form>) most cold chisel steel is similar to 5160. I therefore attempted to start yet again this time following 5160 heat treating. Similar to what was described here (<link removed>)(By Doug Lester) in yet another bladesmith forum post. Despite this my chisel was still soft as butter. So I now turn to you folk. How would you recommend heat treating a hot cut chisel made from a cold chisel whose only markings are CR-V. TL:DR: No Idea how to heat treat a chisel made of mystery steel. Only clues are a marking on the stock of CR-V and that the original steel was a cold chisel. A few things I noticed: -The steel was soft under the hammer deforming easily. -It heated up quickly and lost heat quickly (At a rate I would have considered a bit quick for the size of piece I was working.) -The water quenched edge held for a few cuts before deforming to a useless rounded over smashed....... (Grumble grumble....) (Could have been caused by a novice smith hitting too hard on a chisel and not lifting his work piece off the chisel.) Let me know if you guys need or want any other information. If you read the heat treat pinned posts you would know how, it is all in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Current thinking on hot-cut hardies is that they not be hardened. A decent piece of steel (e.g., normalized 5160) will still be harder than your workpiece at forging temperature, so you shouldn't have any issues with it being able to cut. As you've noticed, a softer hardy will reduce the risk of damaging a hammer on a missed blow. (I actually had this happen to me yesterday, when an over-mighty blow to cut some 5/8" coil spring glanced off the workpiece and struck the hardy with almost full force. BIG dent in the hardy; not a scratch on the hammer. Ten seconds with the grinder, and the hardy is as good as new. I'm okay with that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 With no budget, why not stop by some local auto repair shop and ask about getting some of their scrap like axle shafts, torsion bars, coil springs, leaf springs etc... They just might load you down with more good budget tool making steel then you can handle for a while. Probably for the cost of a box of doughnuts and an explination of what you do rather then them thinking your a scrapper. That said, using axle shaft or tortion bar for hot cuts I have never Needed to heat treat them. And cutting hot metal on them will draw temper on them anyway. Have a picture of your hot cut? Possibly too thin at the cutting edge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 5 hours ago, CheschireCat said: The steel is a chrome vanadium steel.. It is a red short steel.. In other words the steels heating and work at temperature has a narrower range.. These steels make great chisels with proper heat treat.. One of the largest problems with alloy steels and newbie smiths is the lack of understanding what temperature they need to be worked at, as well as how to figure out what needs to happen nearly precisely with Alloy steels.. This particular steel might not need a hardening cycle as pointed out and if might actually be an air hardening steel.. Without getting my hands on it directly and running testing it's hard to say.. The mushing over of the edge is because it's not hard.. I harden all my tooling for the anvil as well as punches and such.. The few years I was away the promotion of not hardening high carbon or alloy steels for hot work has come on board.. All my hardies are fully hardened as is all the hot chisels and such.. So are Swages.. Anyhow, this winter I will be producing a video "How to" on deciphering mystery metal.. For the time being do lots of reading and video watching.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 You really should read the heat treating section, you're mixing and matching techniques you don't understand from blade forums and trying to apply them to mystery steel. If it's not blade steel using a blade heat treat is like putting diesel fuel in a gas engine and expecting it to work properly. Have you read the sections about evaluating steels? . . . No? This is why the general advice to new folk without the necessary skill sets is to buy known steel and follow known processes. You can develop the more advanced skills once you have the basics down. There really isn't a good reason to make things more difficult than necessary. And NO linking to other fora isn't acceptable. Some other fora forbid it IF you read their terms of use. It's more hassle than it's worth for Iforge admin to have to go through your posts and clean them up. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheschireCat Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 20 hours ago, Frosty said: You really should read the heat treating section, you're mixing and matching techniques you don't understand from blade forums and trying to apply them to mystery steel. If it's not blade steel using a blade heat treat is like putting diesel fuel in a gas engine and expecting it to work properly. Have you read the sections about evaluating steels? . . . No? This is why the general advice to new folk without the necessary skill sets is to buy known steel and follow known processes. You can develop the more advanced skills once you have the basics down. There really isn't a good reason to make things more difficult than necessary. And NO linking to other fora isn't acceptable. Some fora forbid it IF you read their terms of use. It's more hassle than it's worth for Iforge admin to have to go through your posts and clean them up. Ok. Understood. I'll be keep everything in mind. I have not read the sections about evaluating mysteries steels. I assume there are some on Iforge? Once I have some free time I'll read trough that stuff. I do apologize to our Admins. It won't be happening again. 21 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said: The steel is a chrome vanadium steel.. It is a red short steel.. In other words the steels heating and work at temperature has a narrower range.. These steels make great chisels with proper heat treat.. One of the largest problems with alloy steels and newbie smiths is the lack of understanding what temperature they need to be worked at, as well as how to figure out what needs to happen nearly precisely with Alloy steels.. This particular steel might not need a hardening cycle as pointed out and if might actually be an air hardening steel.. Without getting my hands on it directly and running testing it's hard to say.. The mushing over of the edge is because it's not hard.. I harden all my tooling for the anvil as well as punches and such.. The few years I was away the promotion of not hardening high carbon or alloy steels for hot work has come on board.. All my hardies are fully hardened as is all the hot chisels and such.. So are Swages.. Anyhow, this winter I will be producing a video "How to" on deciphering mystery metal.. For the time being do lots of reading and video watching.. Ok, ditch the current hot tool and start again from a known steel, read up on mystery/alloyed steel and once more confident come back to the tool or rest of steel. On 10/30/2017 at 10:41 AM, Daswulf said: With no budget, why not stop by some local auto repair shop and ask about getting some of their scrap like axle shafts, torsion bars, coil springs, leaf springs etc... They just might load you down with more good budget tool making steel then you can handle for a while. Probably for the cost of a box of doughnuts and an explination of what you do rather then them thinking your a scrapper. That said, using axle shaft or tortion bar for hot cuts I have never Needed to heat treat them. And cutting hot metal on them will draw temper on them anyway. Have a picture of your hot cut? Possibly too thin at the cutting edge? Now that you mention it, it may be possible that my tool may have been much too thin. I'll look at redesigning the next one I forge. Any case thanks again for the help guys. I apologize again for my lack of forum knowledge and by consequence my poor decisions. I know now and it won't happen again. -Stick to known steels for know. -Read up on Iforge for mysterious steels before opening a new thread. -Seek out, alternatives for low budget steels. -Possibly badly designed tooling. Anything else I should be keeping in mind? I am always interested in learning so if I'm missing anything out please let me know. That's why I joined IForge, I don't have any local smiths who are willing to take on an apprentice. So I am turning to Books on subject, lessons, podcasts, videos and really just about any source I can get my hands on. And Honestly IForge has been one of the best. Even if so far I have just been asking (Rather stupid) questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Not stupid questions at all. If you have trouble with the search function on here try adding " iforgeiron" after your question in the your web browser. Plus read up on the pinned posts in the subjects of your interest or issue. There is so much already on here. And sure don't be afraid to ask if you have questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 You're doing great, @CheschireCat. Just keep grinning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheschireCat Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 All right thanks again. All though I do disagree on one point. There are stupid questions. Those are questions that are asked by people who just end up ignoring the answer. I guess what I meant to say was I'm asking poorly informed questions. But hey at least the questions are coming from a place learning right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Just now, CheschireCat said: There are stupid questions. Those are questions that are asked by people who just end up ignoring the answer. No, that's stupidity (or more precisely, acting stupidly) on the part of the questioner, not a quality intrinsic to the questions themselves. 1 minute ago, CheschireCat said: I guess what I meant to say was I'm asking poorly informed questions. But hey at least the questions are coming from a place learning right? In my line of work, one question we constantly ask ourselves is, "What do we NOT know that we NEED to know in order to move forward?" If your questions brought you to a place of greater comprehension of the level to which you are uninformed, then you're doing fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheschireCat Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, JHCC said: No, that's stupidity (or more precisely, acting stupidly) on the part of the questioner, not a quality intrinsic to the questions themselves. Ok that's a fair point. The reason I would describe a question like that is not because of the intrinsic qualities of said question but rather the intent and resulting consequences, such as the wasting of everyone's time when said question is placed. Any case, It's hardly the end of the world, we don't fully agree and we don't need too. I feel we've strayed complete off topic. I say that we should probably leave that discussion there. Anyways I do wish you all well for the help you've given me as well as the time you spent on me. -The CheschireCat A quote from JHCC: ''In my line of work, one question we constantly ask ourselves is, "What do we NOT know that we NEED to know in order to move forward?" If your questions brought you to a place of greater comprehension of the level to which you are uninformed, then you're doing fine.'' On that we agree, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 minute ago, CheschireCat said: I feel we've strayed complete off topic. Welcome to IFI, where no topic is safe from tangential straying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheschireCat Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 minute ago, JHCC said: Welcome to IFI, where no topic is safe from tangential straying. Fair enough. Have a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 12:05 PM, jlpservicesinc said: I harden all my tooling for the anvil as well as punches and such.. The few years I was away the promotion of not hardening high carbon or alloy steels for hot work has come on board.. All my hardies are fully hardened as is all the hot chisels and such.. So are Swages.. I agree with this. I too harden all my tools, hot work or cold. Two reasons. Practice! A residual hardness remains below the cutting edge to keep deformation from happening g. As for your tool, I treat Axel's, coil springs, leaf springs as 1095 and for the most part, have good success. Perhaps check your setup/temps/colors. Perhaps your light source changes through the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 We are not off target we are just more used to using thermonuclear devices! What's a kilometer more or less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Well, someone's spent a wee bit too much time downwind from White Sands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Actually I believe Socorro is the closest place with more than 1000 people to the Trinity Site... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I have found that there are no stupid questions... however there are some inquisitive idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Problem is when a joke is told or an answer is sarcastic since it's written and read by the whole masses its very hard to tell whether its a joke or not without the facial expressions and body language. Being a more serious type and not liking fun at the expense of others I am happy when it's a good clean joke about just plain old funny stuff.. LIke if you are an American before you enter the bathroom and you are American when you leave.. What are you while you are in there? (European) Youro peein.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: LIke if you are an American before you enter the bathroom and you are American when you leave.. What are you while you are in there? (European) Youro peein.. Oh, no!!!!! Now you're gonna get Frosty going.....pun wars..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 36 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: however there are some inquisitive idiots. In whose mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryCarroll Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I sure do like I forge iron-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 On 10/31/2017 at 6:35 PM, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: I have found that there are no stupid questions... however there are some inquisitive idiots. “Am I one of them?”....he asks inquisitively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, MilwaukeeJon said: “Am I one of them?”....he asks inquisitively Do you want to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said: Do you want to be? I don’t know...do I? By the way, your videos are fantastic. Thanks for posting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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