canada goose Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 I am a blacksmith so I must know what it is ! But I do not .Some of you might though . It is from Europe ( Netherlands or Italy) What is it.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 In French, it is called a "servante". Over the hearth, hung on a trammel, it held pans and cauldrons. Geaorge Neumann in American Antique, calls them warming shelves, pot warmers and he shows two of them. They still appeared in a French ironmonger's catalogue in the 1930's. Odd that such a small country as France would have such remote regions that well in the 20th century some were still cooking on the hearth. Here are two from France. They are in the Hotermans collection of the McCord-Stewart museum in Montréal. I have the details of these pieces as I analyse the collection when time permits. If you are interested, let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 @yves, why am I only now discovering your website? There is some great information on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 JHCC, Yves, I concur. Great resource. Magicians have have used, and still use, servantes for at least four hundred years. Their use probably predates that figure by centuries. They place them on the back of chairs and also tables for loads. Do you work at the McGill McCord museum? I spent many hours there when living in Montreal. Thank you for the information. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 3 hours ago, yves said: In French, it is called a "servante". Personnaly, I would love to see more information on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Slag, I do not work there. However, about three years ago, while researching iron kitchen utensils and implements, I discovered that the Stewart Museum, back in 1971, had bought the Hotermans collection. Hotermans' collection, more than 2700 utensils, was housed in an apartment in Paris he maintained just for it. He could not find a buyer in France. Stewart got it. So I wrote the curator and explained my interest in the collection as a blacksmith and as a McGill graduate in philosophy interested in the history of ideas and the history of those History only mentions as statistics of dead in a war or a plague or a drought or whatever. I got permission to analyse the collection which is now the subject of the blog (French) I try to maintain on kitchen utensils and implements of la Nouvelle-France. The greatest number of followers of the blog are in that order for 2016, French, American and Canadian which three, altogether, make up 50 % of the views in 2016. Total views were over 11,500. I am surprised that so many would be interested in such a pointy subject. Canada Goose, How did you get this "servante" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Yves, Francais? Pas de problem. Now I have to search for your blog u.r.l. Wow, what a great resource. Salut, SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada goose Posted October 28, 2017 Author Share Posted October 28, 2017 Yves ,this was given to me by a friend who had a small collection of iron work he gathered in his travels . I will ask him if he has more details. I thought it was probably hearth related but the shape is so deliberate and detailed I I thought it would be a very specific purpose . Were all the points and shaping just whimsical /esthetics.? When I say “just“ I mean no practical purpose. When I look up servante its meaning is “ hand maid “ so I assume its a kind of nickname for this tool. Would warming shelf be the english term ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Canada Goose, It is not a nickname. It is the name under which Lecoq classifies them and so do museum curators. both hand maids and this utensil were known under the same name. As to form and function : the points facing us in the second pic of my post, on the bottom of the tool were stuck in holes (depressions) in the back wall of the hearth to stabilize the utensil. The flat part on yours would probably have done the same job, ie, stabilize the implement by resting on the wall. I may be wrong on this one. I have never seen one like this exactly. From the pics, it seems to have been forged with function in mind and no esthetic considerations. As to warming shelf, this is what Neumann calls them. 4 hours ago, Michael Cochran said: Personnaly, I would love to see more information on this one. I'm going in the forge now. I'll get back to you later or tomorrow. I'm glad youre interested. Its a lovely object. It does tell some of the story of the women (it was a woman's job) who worked in front of the raging fires of the hearth. Slag, Ustensiles Nouvelle-France Yves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Mr. Yves, Merci. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Monsieur Slag, C'est moi qui vous remercie et si vous aviez des questions à propos des ustensiles en fer, faites les moi parvenir. Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 On 10/28/2017 at 9:16 AM, JHCC said: @yves, why am I only now discovering your website? There is some great information on there. JHCC, I cannot answer your question as you probably well know. I guess that you would come upon it if you were looking for information about the Nouvelle-France period iron kitchen utensils and implements in French. That is if you really are into the subject. When I get an article out, I publicize it on FaceBook groups and here on IFI sometimes. I used to translate the articles in English for IFI but it is too much work. it is more difficult than writing the article and I am not so confident in my written English. It is a pointy subject. Some blacksmiths in the USofA like Jymm Hoffman do some reproductions. Kim Thomas reproduces some items and restores wall mounted "tourne-broches" people buy in France and throw at him. As far as I know, I am one of the few up here with such an interest. Clients up here are few and far between and reenactors do not seem to reenact to the point of cooking on the hearth. I do make some objects for myself. I gave a lecture on the subject last year. Next year I plan on building a hearth here in the garden and reenact cooking on the hearth (no I will not get dressed up in phoney 17th century clothes). I also plan on building a mock mobile hearth to gives lectures on the subject. I might be able to interest history classes in schools, maybe and like I said, sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 yves, the fine folks that run the Jas. Townsend & Sons re-enactor's supply catalog have a youTube channel devoted to 17th-19th century cooking, and might be interested in some of your research. They also sell handmade items from craftsfolk of all trades, and might be an outlet for some of your wares. Crazy Crow trading post is another. (No financial ties except being a customer.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 5 hours ago, John McPherson said: Townsend & Sons re-enactor's supply catalog … Thanks John. I only forge the utensils as a hobby. I forge handrails for the large objects and smaller objects for use in the home things like wine glass rails, brackets, some gates (I have one complicated coming up), general blacksmithing. I only get to the utensils when I can. And being on the older side of life, my evenings are used to recuperate and not to work. I would very much enjoy having an outlet that would allow me to get in a production rythm of these beautiful and meaningful objects. However I have never contacted Townsend & Sons of which I am already aware nor, obviously, the Crazy Crow people I did not know of because of the transport and duty fees involved. Mind you, I should have and probably ought to try and see. However, there is another thing : the prices at Townsend's are quite low. For instance, the spoon number U-1406 sells for 25$. If, let's say, the company takes a 30% mark up (that could even go to 50% or more), that leaves 19$ for the forging, transport and duty fees. Take 5$, say, for transport and another 3$ for duty, that leaves 11$ for forging which in my forge means 11 minutes. I am not that good. It would take me much more than 11 minutes to hand forge a spoon from a piece of flat stock that I would neck and then forge weld to the handle, forge to shape the bowl and the handle and the hook at the end and some decoration, planish in and out and polish and some filing I'm sure. All this put together explains why I have shied away from contacting these people. I should try and come up with a solution, a quality product I could whip out easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 20 hours ago, Michael Cochran said: Personnaly, I would love to see more information on this one. I said : "I'll be back" … This particular warming shelf (number 71.1.165.5 of the Hotermans collection in the Stewart museum in Montréal) is described on the museum tag as a warming shelf with a fixed plateau and handle carrier. It was specifically designed to be used as a support for a pan with a long handle. The support is the 'Y' shaped piece. In the following pic, you have one of these long handled pans resting on a tripod equipped with the same type of 'Y' shaped support. On this tripod, the support can be moved. In the case of our warming shelf, the 'Y' support (all measurements are in mm) is forged out of a 5 x 20 flat piece of iron. The top ('U') part measures 56 mm wide and 35 mm high. The entire support is 113 mm high and the length from the point to the top of the 'Y' is 172 mm. The 2 other supports that keep the pan from sliding out of the shelf are forged out of a 5 x 20 piece of iron. The top part of these is 32 mm wide and they are 64 mm high. All these supports and the frame are riveted to the base ring. The base ring is forge welded out of a 6 x 20 flat iron. The exterior diameter is ø 172 mm. The over all height of the frame, including the extended handle at the top (which was designed to be used with a trammel sporting a wide hook), is 472 mm. The frame is forged of a 10 mm square iron. Unfortunately, my notes do not have the width of the frame nor the height of the handle. These notes were taken 2014.10.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Thank you, yves. That's a wonderful piece and I might have to take a shot a making one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 25 minutes ago, Michael Cochran said: Thank you, yves. That's a wonderful piece and I might have to take a shot a making one. Michael, It was a pleasure. And when you make one do let us see. It is a lovely piece. The elegant product of a village blacksmith accustomed to making lovely things for clients happy to commission him to forge them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 1 hour ago, yves said: Michael, It was a pleasure. And when you make one do let us see. It is a lovely piece. The elegant product of a village blacksmith accustomed to making lovely things for clients happy to commission him to forge them. I'll definitely share it. It will no doubt be much less refined and elegant but nonetheless I will share it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 There is a common variation made to hang on the cross bars of a grate, and so called a bar grate; a number are show like that in "Irons in the Fire" A History of cooking equipment, Rachel Feild---(there are at lest 3 different books called "Irons in the Fire" so be sure to get the right one!) On page 117 there is a hanging example described as "Wrought iron hanging griddle. Griddles were made locally in a multitude of shapes and designs , and were used for suspending baking irons, flat earthernware dishes and griddle pans over a log fire where there was not too much smoke. They are also known as hanging trivets or branders" "Antique Iron, Survey of American and English forms 15th - 19th centuries" Herbert, Peter and Nancy Schiffer shows a hanging version described as "Pot Hanger, Wrought iron 18th century American" "Early American Wrought Iron" Albert H. Sonn Vol 3 page 214-215, plate 308 shows an example listed as "an old trivet with handle rest" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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