Will42805

Another newbie forge build

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Ok so i just got my 1" inswool htz. I am ordering Simwool Rigidizer Refractory coating which will be applied to each layer and allowed to dry before placing the 2nd and third layer. I have also decided to apply MIZZOU CASTABLE PLUS rather than satanite as the refractory liner. It seems to have a lot of good reviews from people. I was also thinking of using chicken wire to hold the inswool while its rigidized and as sort of a rebar effect when applying the refractory morter. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

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If you carefully rigidize the bottom, fire the area with your burner, and then rotate the forge to move another side area to the bottom, and repeat, repeat, repeat, for each layer, you should end up satisfied with the result.

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Inswool htz 2in. front and back 3in. around and rigidized with simwool rigidizer sprayed on. Waiting on my bag of castolite 30 plus. How stiff should the rigidizer make the inswool.

 

Thanks

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Also i have 1" id black pipe with stainless coupler inside. I was going to use modifide reil burner on top but might pick up stuff to make dual t burners and attatch valves to throttle incomming air.

 

Thoughts

This should also give me the option of running only 1 burner without chimney effect.

Internal dimmentions of forge should be approz 7" diamiter and 14" long. Obviously a little less after coating with kastolite and pouring bubble alumina floor

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Looks like a vault! Vertical burners will enjoy the chimney effect regardless unless they're running. Are the couplers visible inside the forge your burner nozzles? If so they need to be pulled back or they'll burn up in short order. They only need to be approx 1/2" inside the shell. And the ceramic blanket in the burner ports needs it's coating of Kastolite to protect it and YOU. This also lets you turn the 2" of liner into a tapered forge nozzle. Hmmm?

I've stopped getting my calculator out to determine forge chamber volumes a while back so telling us the ID x length doesn't indicate how well your burner numbers or positions will work. I'd skyball estimate is as a bit over gunned but that's a good thing , you can turn them down. 

I recommend trimming and feathering the sides of a little ceramic blanket to make the floor and giving it a bit thicker coat of Kastolite, rigidized of course. This saves time and money, you'll have blanket trimmings that'll work perfectly well and not putting a lot of Kastolite on the floor will not only lighten your forge (for your back) and will crush the blanket under it less or not at all. The blanket being thicker directly under the burner means extra insulation right where it'll do the most good.

All in all it looks like an excellent build. Well done.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Thanks. I left the burners a little lower to account for the castolite coating to be applied but will recess them a little further. The burner tubes are snug to the inswool but i did rigidize inside. Should i pull the burners and enlarge them a little to also get kastolite  to coat inside the burner holes. Also im not sure what you mean by feathering but i see how i could lift the bottom of the last layer and insert a small piece to flatten out the floor and add a little more insulating value where the burners will hit.. how firm should the wool be after being rigidized?

Thanks

Will

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I originally did spray coat all the inswool front and back but was unhappy with the thin crispy layer i got so i brushed on a couple of cups more and now the inswool seems to be much firmer. Also I used a Wagner heat gun to speed up the drying process. Just close it off and stuck it in the hole. Seem to work very well

 

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Pull the burner nozzles almost ALL the way back through the insulwool. Enlarge the ports (burner holes) enough to apply a layer of Kastolite or the flame will melt the insulwool in short. order.

When spraying rigidizer on blanket spray it with water first so the rigidizer doesn't flash dry on first contact. This will prevent a thin crusty surface, you want the rigidizer to penetrate a ways. 

Feathering the edge means thinning it so it meets the wall smoothly. Same for spackling a wall repair or Bondo on a car, you don't want a sharp line at the edges. The wall or car you want invisible boundaries. In a forge you want a reasonably smooth flow in the flame. Sharp corners, wrinkles, etc. can cause flame shadows = cool spots. 

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

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Finally got my kast o lite. I havent found much info on the consistancy it shold be when applied. I assume the concistancy of moarter. Sort of like a McDonald's shake. So approx. What consistency should it be.. also i will be applying several thin layers.

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The manufacturere's recommendations if you want to hunt them up on the website are really stiff but that's for max strength. We're not making industrial furnace walls to make it wet enough to work but don't get carried away.

Mix it like you were kneeding dough, just stirring doesn't work very well, I used an old SS spoon and mashes it around, the more you mix it the wetter it behaves but it stiffens back up quickly. Kastolite isn't the easiest castable refractory I've ever used. 

Next time I'm casting it rather than plastering with it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Finally got my kast o lite. I havent found much info on the consistancy it shold be when applied. I assume the concistancy of moarter. Sort of like a McDonald's shake. So approx. What consistency should it be.. also i will be applying several thin layers.

So much for the several layers. Its done. But approx 1/4 in layer.  Ive run a wagner heat gun in it for about 15 min at a crack. About how long should i wait before fireing the burners for the first time?

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These were the instructions that came with my kast-o-lite from Wayne Coe. Not much to it just add a very little amount of water at a time. It really doesn't take as much water as you would think.

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Per manufacturer instructions it requires just over a gallon of water per 55 lbs.

So, for 5 lb.’s, that would be right at 16oz’s of water.

I’d only add 10-12oz,’s to start.

Put some rubber gloves on and mix by hand thoroughly.

Add the remaining 4-6 oz’s as needed.

I stop adding water  of the required amount once the KOL achieves a compressible form by hand.

Holds together without falling apart.

If you going to trowel on a 1/2” layer you’ll more than likely need the full amount of water required.

Once it’s set up for 12-16 hours, pritz it w/ a spray bottle of water.

I always let the stuff sit up for a few days after casting and unwrapping to allow whatever moisture still in it evaporate before firing.

Just treat it like you would concrete.

Per manufactures recommendations:

It’s not to be cured out any faster than 104* for certain specified amounts of time but as long as you take it slow and easy you should be fine without any cracking developing.

Side Note: KOL can be sanded and polished to a smooth finish if desired.

Make sure you wear a respirator and do it outside with a good strong fan blowing the dust away from you and your shop.

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there are 8 pints to the gallon not 10:   2 pints to the quart and 4 quarts to the gallon

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Correct TP.  

8 oz = cup

16 oz = pint

32 oz = quart

128 oz = gallon

Curious but did I post something to indicate there was 10 pints to a gallon? <shrug?>

Actually, for only 5 lb.’s of KOL he would need 13.33 oz’s of water, per manufacture recommendations.

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IDK: STOP IT!!  :angry: You are OVER THINKING THIS!

MIx to a working consistency. PERIOD. Wayne's advice is good for a beginning (departure) point. It's not cast in stone and the manufacturer's recommendations are an even more general departure point SUGGESTION for entirely different end users.

We don't need or WANT an ideal mix ratio for a commercial furnace, we want a workable mixture for the forge YOU ARE BUILDING N-O-W! 

Sorry about the loud shouting but there aren't any specific directions we can make for YOUR forge. Kastolite is VERY sticky, tough and forgiving stuff. Back off on the quest for perfection, this is where "Good enough" is what you're looking for.

Honest, close enough will do you just fine. ;)

Frosty The Lucky.

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Everything within reason, common sense and application is subject to users discretion.

I was only pointing out what manufacturer suggested.

JlBlom pointed out it doesn’t take as much water as one would think and rightfully so. Which brings up an important aspect of Not adding to much water which anybody that has ever used KOL knows there’s a thin line between not enough, just enough water, enough or too much.

I was playing around with some KOL a couple weeks ago.

Sifted some with standard window screen to remove all the big stuff, mixed with 50/50 commercial rigidizer & water.

I brushed it  on the inner wall(s) of the forge KOL hot face shell to fill in any voids/air pocket holes due to the casting.

Adhered just fine although left a somewhat rough finish due to the larger granulars of refractory elements left behind after sifting.

What i noticed after mixing was the collodial silicate mixed with the sifted KOL began to thicken shortly afterwards so the work time will be limited to around 10 or so minutes for application.

Was just experimenting to find a cheaper brushable alternative for a CFB wash or KOL shell repair.

Checked the inner shell today and seemed to hold up fine from last nights initial firing.

Again, everything subject to application and users discretion.

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My mistake I thought you were asking a question. I can't keep up with your abbreviations I should maybe just read.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Quote

 

"Per manufacturer instructions it requires just over a gallon of water per 55 lbs.

So, for 5 lb.’s, that would be right at 16oz’s of water."

So for a bit more than 1/10 you suggest 1/8 the water

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That is a beauty.  built to a high standard.  I had a mouse hole about that size, a bit bigger actually and found it too small for many of the things I wanted to do.  your forge will be quite efficient with that much insulation.  looking forward to seeing it up and running.  you mentioned earlier that you were going to use Reil burners.  what did you ultimately choose?  

 

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On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 11:00 PM, ThomasPowers said:

So for a bit more than 1/10 you suggest 1/8 the water

Straight from the horse's mouth.

 

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