Questions about Time with a Forge

[godospartan]

Alright, so let me just say, i may never become a smith, i may never actually try, and most likely my questions will only serve one purpose, and that is to have accurate information when writing a story. So the only reason i even signed up, was to make sure i did smithing justice. THat being said, let me ask you all a few questions, alright?

Now, let's head to a video game most know, where smithing is key to being stronger. Skyrim. I have a vision in my head of a master smith, who knows all techniques of the trade, who can rival even Eorlund Greymane. So when i ask my questions, understand this is a ROUGH estimate of what a master smith is capable of.

 

First question: How long does it take to heat a block of steel, such as one for a steel longsword, to shaping temperature? I know it takes a few minutes to an hour, depending, to get the forge itself to temperature, but how long does it take the steel ingot you are shaping to go from stock room temp to hot enough to shape properly?

Second question: How long does it take for the heated steel to cool off as soon as it leaves the forge? how long does a smith have to shape it until it is too cool to do so?

Third and final question: How effective would the forge, the grindstone, and the smelter be in Skyrim in real life scenarios today?

 

i ask these because i cannot find an answer anywhere else, and because i don't want to assume a master smith is capable of heating one blade and then shaping the other at the same time without repercussions. or if one could make a sword by themselves in a short amount of time.

[Jasent]

I'm no master by any means nor have I ever forged a sword nor do I know the game your speaking of.... But I do know it takes many hours to forge a sword and even a master sword maker can only forge about 6" in a single heat and even then that 6" will take several heats to finish.  There are so many variables that any answer you'll get only pertains to that particular set up. 

[godospartan]

Let me give you a setup then.... because i still do not have a rough answer at all yet.

 

Take my questions again, but this time apply it to this scenario. a smith who has been making such swords for 5 years straight. their forge is a round stone pool with coal and wood and a bellows that the steel sits on top of. How long will it take the bare stock steel to get to shaping temp, how long will it take in open air from that temp to be too cool to continue shaping, and how effective would that style of forge work?

 

Also, the grindstone in the game is a stone wheel, like a whetstone wheel, how effective would a stone grinder be on a sword? If you need a more accurate real life representation of what i am talking about, think medival style smiths, no power hammers or sandpaper.

[Frosty]

You're writing a fantasy story right? Things are different if you're writing a game scenario. 

Why do you assume medieval blacksmiths didn't have power hammers and other powered tools? Power hammers have been in use longer than iron has been used. 

Paper is the most modern invention you mention but a little tallow and whatever fineness of sand on the rough side of leather has been used as long as humans have needed to shine something up. 

I enjoy writing science fiction a lot more than fantasy but thee basic principles are the same. Gloss over the technical details, especially for a fantasy. Who cares if the forge is round? The iron doesn't. Forget how many minutes it takes to heat a bar of steel, there are too many variables for even the most expert swordsmith who ever lived to put a number on it.

It'd be different if you were writing story in a high tech level scenario. Were I including heating a steel billet in a sci fi story It'd just get done, for instance, "Clemnoid the master smith put the billet in the oven and removed it when it was the right temperature according to the readouts." 

Unless there is a good reason to include them, technical details tend to detract from a story. Without knowing a craft well enough to practice or better yet teach it, going into technical details to any depth is a mistake. You aren't writing a text book are you?

Is a specific time span important in the plot? If so figure between 3-5 minutes in a decent fire for the initial billet. The more refined the sword's shape becomes the less time it'll take. 

The shape of the forge doesn't matter or are you illustrating the story? If so, pick one you like. Honest it makes zero difference what a forge looks like so long as it does the job. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jeremy k]

The most accurate answer to your questions would be.... take a beginner course in blacksmithing to get a cense of blacksmithing in general, by doing this you will work smaller stock and get a whole lots of info as to what you ask, then you will be able to answer the questions yourself easily. You will then have a greater appreciation towards blacksmithing, Making Swords is far beyond blacksmithing experience wise. Again - do yourself a learning experience and take a beginner class on blacksmithing - whether you use it in the future or now - it "WILL" be worth your while for experience and knowledge of blacksmithing. Your questions have been asked here many times about gaming, proceed with a simple course and please come back to let us know what your feelings toward blacksmithing are afterward.

[godospartan]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

You're writing a fantasy story right? Things are different if you're writing a game scenario. 

Why do you assume medieval blacksmiths didn't have power hammers and other powered tools? Power hammers have been in use longer than iron has been used. 

Paper is the most modern invention you mention but a little tallow and whatever fineness of sand on the rough side of leather has been used as long as humans have needed to shine something up. 

I enjoy writing science fiction a lot more than fantasy but thee basic principles are the same. Gloss over the technical details, especially for a fantasy. Who cares if the forge is round? The iron doesn't. Forget how many minutes it takes to heat a bar of steel, there are too many variables for even the most expert swordsmith who ever lived to put a number on it.

It'd be different if you were writing story in a high tech level scenario. Were I including heating a steel billet in a sci fi story It'd just get done, for instance, "Clemnoid the master smith put the billet in the oven and removed it when it was the right temperature according to the readouts." 

Unless there is a good reason to include them, technical details tend to detract from a story. Without knowing a craft well enough to practice or better yet teach it, going into technical details to any depth is a mistake. You aren't writing a text book are you?

Is a specific time span important in the plot? If so figure between 3-5 minutes in a decent fire for the initial billet. The more refined the sword's shape becomes the less time it'll take. 

The shape of the forge doesn't matter or are you illustrating the story? If so, pick one you like. Honest it makes zero difference what a forge looks like so long as it does the job. 

Frosty The Lucky.

i am not attempting to write several paragraphs worth of detail into my story. when it comes to smithing, armor or weapons, i respect the craft itself. in fact, if i had the money, materials, and the know how i would definately try my hand. however, my lifestyle has left little time to actually learn, and no place i have ever lived has had any kinnd of teacher to help start my path into being a smith. but digressing, i respect the craft and all who practice it, in any and all ways possible for any and all work created, be it a small knife or even exceptional intricate designs on many things that is not limited to armor or sword. i respect it so much, i do not wish to dull how much work and pride goes into smithing by accident.

 

THe reason i am attempting to find out the length of time it takes for a stock block to get to shaping temp, and how long it would take for the block to cool from shaping temp to needing reheating as it's shaped, if because it is indeed inquisitive to the plot itself. i need my smith to be capable of helping forge and shape several shortswords, and a greatsword within 20 hours, and a full set off armor through the night. it's a timing thing for this character to have everything done for when he sets out. of course it's in a fantasy world, and he will most likely be faster during the shaping of everything than normal, but i am still trying to be as realistic to the story as need be. in fact, my current vision for this smith is to heat one block of steel up, and when he takes it out to forge and shape it, he puts in a second block to heat. switching between them during heat cycles until he is done. i wanted to know a rough timeframe in order to know if that was possible or not for a master smith if he had the stamina and strength to do so.

[Michael Cochran]

I'm no expert on swords and armor but I do know you're not going to make 'several short swords and a great sword' and a full set of armor in less than two days. Sure some guys are faster than others but I don't think anyone has ever been able to turn out that much that fast working alone especially without power tools at his disposal. 

On a different topic, you say you've never lived close enough to a smith that could teach you anything and that you don't have the time or the money to do it. Do some looking on here at some of Glenn's recent posts. He shows a guy on YouTube doing great things with Stone Age tech. Time is a relative thing. If you spend a couple hours a day watching tv or playing video games or playing on Facebook you could spend that time learning how to forge. 

[Daswulf]

Well having more than one iron in the fire is more efficient. As far as swords, talk with JPH. He is one person here I would consider a master bladesmith that makes swords. As far as armour, this was more recently posted and might give you some idea on how long it might take to make armour. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52705-new-pbs-documentary-on-armor-making/?tab=comments#comment-563171

But honestly I think you are still thinking in terms of fantasy and video games since different operations would have different people completing them long ago. The master blacksmith would guide the work and help but he probably had many helpers.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Wow you are more than a bit off on how it actually was done.  First of all a master swordsmith would not be making armour; different crafts; second blacksmiths did not make swords!  They forged the blades and a bunch of other craftsmen did the grinding, polishing, hilting, scabbard making, etc Take a look at how traditional Japanese swords are still made: Expert Sword Blade Forger---with a team of folks striking for him. Expert "polisher", Expert Tsuka maker, Expert Scabbard maker and each one of these has a bunch of workers in their shop! (May I commend to your attention National Geographic's "Living treasures of Japan" the section on the swordmaker---it's on youtube.) In Europe a lot of separate guilds were involved in high medieval times (and  many more years than 5 to get from apprentice to journeyman to master!) The Cutler was often the person that subcontracted all the work out and then sold it through his shop. Does your smith have several teams of trained strikers to hand where they can trade off---they need to be trained to work with that smith if they are doing high end work!  The master smith does the brain work and the strikers do the moving of the metal!

During the medieval period a craftsman did not have the luxury of owning complete sets of tools for different crafts and learning the different crafts and being able to let them sit while they practiced different crafts. (How many people do you know that have and use a different car for each day of the week?)

Also drop the ingot; ingots are cast and at least in western europe cast steel comes in the 1700's. (Huntsman process)  Billet would be a better term.  How fast it can be done under emergency situations rather depends on how many trained strikers the smith has to hand so they can trade off.  The forging will probably be one of the shorter times with the cycle time for heating the blade and transferring it to and from the anvil taking a lot of the time .  If you have a large forge well blown and you are careful to not let the blade cool off perhaps 3 minutes a heat.  More likely you could cycle several blades with the first one ready for the next go by the time the last one goes back in. Dangerous as inattention can result in the destruction of a blade!  (Note that aggressive hammering helps keep the steel hot at the anvil.)  Also is this a monosteel blade or pattern welded?  Pattern welded can add a lot OF TIME to the process.  Some swords had 13 different pieces made and welded together. (See The Sword in Anglo Saxon England, H.R.E Davidson) Also as the blank gets closer to final form both heating and cooling will take place in less time, though a hot anvil helps prolong the working time and they do absorb heat in use---one professional smith here mentioned boiling their tea kettles on the face of their industrial anvils at lunch time.

As to laying a sword on top of the forge: Utter and complete Bovine Processed Hay!  You would be heating one side faster than another and even worse you are exposing it to O2 and so increasing scale losses and decarburization.  When I spent a day with a swordmaker in Toledo (at the Fabrica de Espadas Zamorano several decades ago) The forger stuck the blade in a huge heap of very fine coal---you could not even see a flame!  But he knew exactly where the hot spot was and how long to wait.  Rapier---it didn't take long!

Does the smith have the steel to hand?  They didn't make their own (save under rare cases) iron/steel has been a trade good since the late bronze age. Does the armour maker need to send the metal to a battermill to have it thinned down into plate?  (In the NOVA program on armour they mention that the center of the breastplate was 4 times thicker than the edge for greater protection over the wearer's vitals.) (The Royal Armoury at Greenwich, 1515-1649: A History of Its Technology)

Now if you want to learn about the metallurgy may I suggest "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" and "The Sword and the Crucible" Alan Williams.

I haven't seen the movie or video games mentioned I've spent my time forging and studying the history of the craft. (Started smithing in 1981)

For general technology of the times "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" Gies & Gies is very readable and easy to find and inexpensive.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss specifics; but I have to warn you modern popular culture pretty much only gets the "you heat the steel up and hit it with the hammer" part of smithing right.