Can You Please Evaluate My Tong Design

[ausfire]

Mark is right; words on the internet can often be misinterpreted. A general statement may be seen as personal when it's not.

In any event, I hope @Robin 447 does come back on for two reasons: to remove his status as a one-poster, and to acknowledge the constructive criticism that he sought.

[genesaika]

I'd just like to see them come back with a revised version, or a working prototype to prove everyone wrong lol. Much more likely to see the revised version, but it would be cool either way.

Sorry I'm a noob here too and just hoping to find some tonight examples while I work on scrounging up the tools and parts I want. Otherwise I'd offer some criticisms too.

[Mark Ling]

Thank ya'll for understanding, I figured you probably didnt mean it directly to him JHCC.

                                                                                                                                             Littleblacksmith 

[Robin447]

On 05/10/2017 at 1:36 PM, Latticino said:

The reason that a typical tong clamp/ring is at the end of the handle, in my estimation, is functionality.  If at the front (where you have put it) it will get hot while heating the stock, be difficult to operate, potentially distort the threading mechanism (which is complicated, offset which will torque the rivet joint, and prone to failure), and adds weight to the tong where you don't want it.  The hardy insert is problematic as it will only work with a limited type of stock configuration.

It is an interesting idea, but have you done much forging yourself?  I think more practical experience would help influence your design in a more positive direction.  I could see a detachable hardy based 3 axis clamp being quite helpful, if you can figure a way to make it quickly and easily operable and integrate it into your tong design.  The concept certainly has potential, but I think you need more development and testing before evaluation.

As regards price of the current design, I would not be interested, so expect any price would be too high.  Sounds like a classroom assignment, not an actual product though, so I would estimate that if it could be produced as a well functioning tool a price in the $100 range wouldn't be too far out of line.

Thank you very much  I have considered that in the past with the heat distorting the thread of the clamp but I assumed that it would be more beneficial to  have the clamp at the front because of the increase in clamping effective having nearer the axis. You are in fact correct that  I don't have too much experience, with forging (only making a couple pieces so far), I am currently trying to increase my forging knowledge and ability, but I am currently still very much a novice, and as such I am more focusing on the project helping people of my level who don't quite have those skills yet. Thank you so much for your advice and being kind, and I am sorry for the late reply (I didn't expect this forum to be so active )  

 

 

[Robin447]

Hey guys thanks for all of your really helpful reply's (I'm currently just getting round to replying to all of them) I'm sorry for the late reply's, as I said I'm doing this in school so I haven't checked back on it since my last lesson as I didn't expect this forum to be as active as it is  

Once again thank you so much for your feedback it will be so helpful towards my design!

I'm sorry if any of you feel like I was being rude, it was purely just an underestimate of all of your eagerness  

Don't worry, no offence taken at my end, I understand how you lot must feel about my sort of user, I hope to be more active on here in the future when I'm more familiar with the skill in itself. 

All water under the bridge  

On 05/10/2017 at 2:12 PM, JHCC said:

What Latticino said is all true. I would add that the open joint (presumably to allow longer stock to pass through the center) is interesting, but potentially problematic. Two riveted joints is twice as many mechanisms to get jammed. Most current designs for holding longer stock have some kind of offset, so that you can just grab where you need to grab, without having to thread the tongs over the length of the rod.

I like Latticino's idea of the detachable 3-axis clamp to mount in the hardy. For that, I'd suggest some kind of quick-release that clamps onto a specific spot on the reins (one without any protruding lugs or sharp corners to mess with your tong hand when not in use) for fast and positive locking. One advantage of that would be the ability to put the tongs in exactly the same spot on the anvil for multiple heats, without having to reposition every time.

That is really helpful thank you so much  I'm still looking into Latticino's ideas; truth be told I'm still trying to get my head around all of you guy's different input 

On 05/10/2017 at 3:47 PM, PVF Al said:

My first thought is that by the time you have the work positioned in the tongs and everything locked in place, you won't have enough heat left to get much work done. I would think a simple chain hold down would be much faster and versatile. Al 

Thank you, I was intending for the clamp to actually be lock into position whilst the piece is in the forge, however I am currently trying to figure out the logistics of this due to the previous comment of the others  

[Latticino]

57 minutes ago, Robin447 said:

Thank you very much  I have considered that in the past with the heat distorting the thread of the clamp but I assumed that it would be more beneficial to  have the clamp at the front because of the increase in clamping effective having nearer the axis. You are in fact correct that  I don't have too much experience, with forging (only making a couple pieces so far), I am currently trying to increase my forging knowledge and ability, but I am currently still very much a novice, and as such I am more focusing on the project helping people of my level who don't quite have those skills yet. Thank you so much for your advice and being kind, and I am sorry for the late reply (I didn't expect this forum to be so active )  

No worries, from your original post it sounded like you needed immediate assistance, so I tried to respond promptly.  I should have been more patient, but was having a tough day.

Yes, this can be a pretty active board.

As regards clamping effectiveness, I think you have it backwards.  An examination of the simple lever principal will tell you that the further away from the axis the clamp is placed the more force it will exert on the short end of the arm.  That, of course, is predicated on having the clamp on the "cold side" of the tongs, as I have recommended.  Also note that having it in that position will help counterbalance the stock, making it easier to manipulate (like a sword pommel).

Unfortunately this does not take into account the problem of keeping the tongs attached to the stock when it is heating.  My experience is if you do this you will overheat the tongs, eventually loosening and distorting them as you work on your stock.  With more time forging you will find that you typically need to quench the bits on your tongs periodically to prevent this (which would be a problem if they are locked down to the stock).

Good luck with your project.

[JNewman]

The biggest problem I see with these tongs unless they are a box jaw  is squeezing the reins closed will OPEN the tongs.  Putting your fingers between tong reins while forging which you would need to do to close these tongs is potentially dangerous. 

Unfortunately Universal tongs don.t exist.   To forge steel efficiently and safely especially under power hammers the tongs  have to fit the steel.  A tong design that is harder (more expensive) to make is not a good design.  I have well over a hundred pairs of tongs and still find it necessary to make or modify tongs.  (not for one off parts)